Eolith temper? Stroma wash

[Snapdragyn]

OK, I'm very confused. I got my first book for level 10 Outfitter recipes, & the basic (iron bar, tanned leather) recipes call for ingredients that aren't for sell on the society vendor. Do I have to start buying/trading from other traders for this stuff just to make the very most basic recipes? None of these components are on my server's broker.

[Moonshade]

Yes, until that society gets a high enough level to stock those necessities, you'll need a scholar buddy.

[Elyana]

You also can grab a copy of advanced scholar recipes vol 10 and scribe it yourself.

From other's posts I have read over on the EQ2 site, all artisans can scribe the scholar/ craftsman/ outfitter vol 10. Also this works with the first volume of your subclass tree. Sage/Jeweler/Alchemists all can scribe vol 20 of the series, Provisioner/Carpenter/Woodworker and Weaponsmith/Armorer/Tailor can do the same for the first book in their subclass as well.

[Korin]

Do you know if this is a bug or intended to allow tradeskillers to be self sufficient on basic skills?

[Elyana]

I think it is a coding issue where the skill to scribe is 50 and all artisans have that skill. Same for the scribing of the subclass volumes. When you ding 20 you have the skill to scribe all your branches subclass books in the same manner. Since I am only repeating what I read on the EQ2 forum I honestly don't know =) Because you cannot scribe ALL the subclasses vol 20 books (only those in your own branch) it does seem to be intended though, because if they based it on straight skill then you should be able to scribe all subclasses books at lvl 20.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Yes. This is a BUG.

The Dev's acknowledge it as a bug

here is the thing.

They are likely to REMOVE any recipes from people who should not have it when they fix the bug. SO... DO NOT ask for a refund, complain, etc when they are removed. You have been warned. They are not going to call it an exploit (though it is) and are not going to discipline people for using it. But don't come whining to them or to us (I promise to sumarilly delete such posts) when they are removed from your book.

[Velislyth]

Who's going to whine about having lost 5 silver on a skill when scholars are charging as much as 1-5 silver per eolith temper? If they were being anything close to reasonable, no one would care about a bug like this.

Maybe that's why the devs referred to this as a bug which has no real ETA on solving. Seeing if issues like the scholar pricing scheme are temporary/early price hikes that will eventually smooth out with supply/demand, or if they need to seriously rethink this particular part of the inter-class artisan dependence.

[Torval the Harvester]

Originally Posted by Velislyth

Who's going to whine about having lost 5 silver on a skill when scholars are charging as much as 1-5 silver per eolith temper? If they were being anything close to reasonable, no one would care about a bug like this.

Maybe that's why the devs referred to this as a bug which has no real ETA on solving. Seeing if issues like the scholar pricing scheme are temporary/early price hikes that will eventually smooth out with supply/demand, or if they need to seriously rethink this particular part of the inter-class artisan dependence.

Ummm...sorry, but the first part is untrue, and the second part is both wildly speculative and directly contrary to what the devs actually said. I won't criticise you for scribing the books, I mean, I did as soon as it was downgraded from "potential exploit" to "long term bug" but it certainly hasn't been left in the game because a week into live the devs decided their entire concept of tradeskills is flawed. It was left in because they can't figure out how to fix it short of a massive overhaul of the entire system.

Artisans are meant to be interdependent. And btw, I've never seen anyone sell temper in that range. Maybe some people try, but I've never seen anyone actually *sell* it in that range. 50-60 copper seems to be normalish. I've got mine listed at 60 copper just to see if someone will bite, but it isn't exactly flying off the shelves. At 60 copper it's just barely worth my bother to buy more iron (or tourquise, or electrum, whatever I can find cheapest) and make more. That seems like a reasonable standard to me, and where I imagine the market will stabalize.

Just remember, you seem to be one of these people that is slotting in harvested materials as "free." They aren't free. They are worth whatever the market dictates they are worth. Even if you harvest them yourself you could still sell them, so they have value. When the raw materials to produce wash/resin/oil/temper (and temper is probably the cheapest) go from about 60c-1s, and then add 12c for candle/liquid, and then add time and trouble, 60-80c per is entirely reasonable. Now that you can make your own, why don't you "cash in" if you think this is too high? And if you can't be bothered, why not ask yourself why anyone else would bother selling as cheap as you seem to think they should?

I just wanted to answer the very polite poster who seemed to be asking if this was an intended feature. It isn't. While you might as well use it if everyone else is going to, get used to the idea that you are only getting a 10 level reprive from the intended system here. It will be waiting for you when you get to level 20.

I'm sure Outfitters generally are going to turn into the prima donnas of the artisan world, because we seem to produce a lot of finished products and not a lot of interim components that other people need. And so there will be people sitting around carping at how other artisans are gouging them just because those other artisans (shock!) seem to think they are entitled to a cut of our very large profit margins on finished goods. Well, get used to it, because I agree with them. I've got certain tier two products flying at what I consider to be obscene prices because now I can produce them alone. But let me tell you, if I had to buy every temper, and every wash, and every oil for 1 silver per, I'd still be making profit.

Anyway, if you already can't stand the fact that you are dealing with an open and somewhat unstable market when buying from other players....well, maybe this isn't the path for you.

[Sauro]

As an outfitter on the mistmoore server I have seen prices get way out of hand.

Eolith Vials, and Stroma wash's have been going for 1.25 silver each so I can vouch for outrageous prices.

Luckily I have money coming in fairly regularly but people are overcharging yeah.

I know all kinds of people running scams and it sickens me.

I have heard of so many new players that were buying sub level 10 spells for 10 silver and that is a rip-off and taking advantage of new players.

[Burns]

Originally Posted by Sauro

As an outfitter on the mistmoore server I have seen prices get way out of hand.

Eolith Vials, and Stroma wash's have been going for 1.25 silver each so I can vouch for outrageous prices.

Luckily I have money coming in fairly regularly but people are overcharging yeah.

I know all kinds of people running scams and it sickens me.

I have heard of so many new players that were buying sub level 10 spells for 10 silver and that is a rip-off and taking advantage of new players.

So then make a scholar and offer your goods at lower prices. Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave right now.

[PhantomCleric]

I don't understand why more people don't look at this the same way you look at grouping in adventuring. When I'm in a group I don't tell the warrior "Ok I've healed you twice now and you only tanked one mob, so you will need to tank one more mob before I heal you again." You just do what's needed, the same holds true in crafting. I have a few contacts that I go with for various ingredients, we don't set up any barter system we just fill orders for each other. I don't have a running tab everytime the scholar needs a stack of iron spikes, he just gets a stack. When I'm running low on Tempers I just let him know ahead of time and he's there with a stack for me. These arn't guys in my guild or long time friends they are just crafting contacts I've made who understand the value of working together.

I think the problem is with people who don't think what they are making for the contact is "worth" what they are getting in return. It doesn't matter, if you can call on that person anytime to fill any shortage you have that is worth much more than a few silver here and there. Soloing through the crafting profession will be very annoying indeed.

[Punker]

Originally Posted by Burns

So then make a scholar and offer your goods at lower prices. Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave right now.

Getting a level 10 in any artisan class really isn't that hard, it can be done on Noob island easy enough - I got Punker to level 9 + 213% in 5 hours on noob island, plus got all his gathering/foresting/mining skills over 40 (although no trapping on noob island bites the BIG one)

Of course, if you're other chars are already off the island, it could be problematic, although if you already have one artisan char 10+ you do have the ability to raise funds pretty easilly for the chosen character in the new skill.

I'll be making my level 17 brawler a scholar I think, just so I can keep up with the scrolls he'll need in the future.

(and yes, in the meantime, get a scholar to buy the level 10 book and do it yourself - just don't complain when they do remove the ability to create your own ingredients)

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Not to shoot myself in the foot here but don't those finished washes and tempers sell to NPC vendors for a silver a piece?

My Iron ingots sell for one silver each to NPC's and all that takes is an eolith temper. I have several alchemy types in guild that I drop 30-40 Turquoise and electrum on after doing a resource run. They make me tempers I make them iron spikes or Burlap Thread or armor or weapons or whatever.

We charge each other nothing and since we all do resource gathering and trade around what we all need all we ever really spend CASH on is our fuels.

Get in a guild or make a PC craft association. It goes REALLY FAR in advancing you.

But it is hardly unreasonable for an alchemist to sell him product to PC's for 1.25 silver if the NPC's will pay him a silver each.

[Aguirre]

I love interdependency, but there should also be some 'soloing' They have that for adventuring, but there is not 1 craftsman recipe that does not require stroma something or other. (excep 'baking').

I think it might be better to have all intermediate components not require other classes.

I am all for final products requiring other classes

The thing is, as a craftsmen I cannot sell any tier 2 things with out help from a scholar. But a scholar can easily make 3sp profit from anything stroma.

1 - water - 6cp
1 - fuel - 6cp
1 - tuber/maple - 50cp (high price)

easily results in 4 stromas if they use buffs correctly - priced at 50cp-1sp each

2-4sp gross minus 60cp cost = 1.4-3.4sp profit per 1 combine And it stacks, and it does not involve any other classes And they have many valuable final combines

That said, this is really not meant to be a rant. I get to make cool stuff that has in-game graphics. Or bank boxes with loads of slots. It also sounds like the society's can help with this problem, I look forward to when they get fixed!

[Korsis]

Originally Posted by Torval the Harvester

Just remember, you seem to be one of these people that is slotting in harvested materials as "free." They aren't free. They are worth whatever the market dictates they are worth. Even if you harvest them yourself you could still sell them, so they have value. When the raw materials to produce wash/resin/oil/temper (and temper is probably the cheapest) go from about 60c-1s, and then add 12c for candle/liquid, and then add time and trouble, 60-80c per is entirely reasonable. Now that you can make your own, why don't you "cash in" if you think this is too high? And if you can't be bothered, why not ask yourself why anyone else would bother selling as cheap as you seem to think they should?

You're leaving out one very important detail. If you are actually a scholar, then you can be reasonable sure that these combines will be pristine, and will yield 4 results. So even assuming your highball cost estimate of 112c, and the "low" price of 60c, you're actually selling the product of the combine for 240c, more than a 100% markup from ingredient cost. If the ingredient cost is a more reasonable 80c, then it's a 200% markup. Is that "fair"? Is that what your time is worth? Well if people are buying it, then it is a fair price imo. No reason to hurt yourself out of a bizarre sense of duty to sell things arbitrarily low. I say, sell it as high as it sells. That's what a market economy is all about. But all the same, understand that you're making a pretty tidy margin of profit selling tempers at 60c. Selling them "at cost" would be in the 20-30c each range.

Edit: the poster right above me said basically the same thing . . must have missed it or posted at the same time. Either way, sorry to be redundant.

[Torval the Harvester]

Originally Posted by Korsis

You're leaving out one very important detail. If you are actually a scholar, then you can be reasonable sure that these combines will be pristine, and will yield 4 results. So even assuming your highball cost estimate of 112c, and the "low" price of 60c, you're actually selling the product of the combine for 240c, more than a 100% markup from ingredient cost. If the ingredient cost is a more reasonable 80c, then it's a 200% markup. Is that "fair"? Is that what your time is worth? Well if people are buying it, then it is a fair price imo. No reason to hurt yourself out of a bizarre sense of duty to sell things arbitrarily low. I say, sell it as high as it sells. That's what a market economy is all about. But all the same, understand that you're making a pretty tidy margin of profit selling tempers at 60c. Selling them "at cost" would be in the 20-30c each range.

Edit: the poster right above me said basically the same thing . . must have missed it or posted at the same time. Either way, sorry to be redundant.

Yes, I think that's entirely reasonable. Have you actually seen what people are paying for finished products? The end customer doesn't seem to mind covering that profit margain, so why should you? I've done the math on everything I'm selling (and selling easily) and even at one silver budgeted for each wash and temper people are happy to pay close to a 100% mark-up. And I'm budgeting 60 copper for each raw ingredient, btw.

Sorry, but check your numbers. You think you are the only one who deserves to make a profit? Maybe you just haven't produced any finished products for the market. Manage that and check back with me. I think you'll be satisfied. don't know if that will hold up long term, but we'll have to see. For now it's working fine for me.

I'll repeat again, 100% profit is entirely reasonable for an alchemist. At that price, frankly, I can't be bothered. People have been buying my oils and washes for 80 copper per and I've taken them off the market because they are too much trouble to produce and I'd rather make finished items. Hope that gives you some idea of all the "cashing in" that's going on.

[Vikken]

I'm not going to get into the muck of all this, but scholars do require goods from Outfitters. Thats simple fact means that over time, scholars will see the value in keeping their interm products at a reasonable cost. Scholar A gouges the market on tempers, Scholar A pays the price in higher costs for spikes and whatever. The market will stiblize itself after a bit, you just have to give this time.

I also suspect that current finished goods for adventuring, like weapons and armor, will see a general drop in profit margins after people start to realize that questing is so much cheaper. Crafters will then have to compete with quest items, or fill in the holes where there are few quests. Frankly, I haven't seen any really gotta have items from otufitters yet, even the rares, for the cost and time involved. The Outfitters market is for the lazy, wasteful, or ignorant adventurer. Only time will tell how much of a market that is.

[Ixnay]

I strongly disagree with this system. Please just hear me out before you call me a whiner.

I'm in Freeport, and I wanted to become an Armorer. I am a level 12 outfitter and a level 16 crusader. Just the other day I finally got all my gear slots filled, I have very poor gear - I love the game but I just don't have the time I used to have to play.

So I don't know anyone on the server really, and I have just one character. My strat was to get my gathering etc. skills over 40 and then farm the heck out of Commonlands, and use some of what I farmed to advance my trade skills, and sell the rest so I could buy other stuff needed to advance my character and tradeskills.

So I did that. The problem is many others apparently had the same idea, and there seems to be a glut of raw materials on the market - tubers are selling for 20 copper each or less. Farming competition in the Commons is intense, let me tell you.

In about 6 to 8 hours of hard farming with some soloing mixed in, I can get about 4 stacks each of Maple and Iron, and about 2 stacks each of Electrum and Turquoise. These items do eventually sell at around 20 copper each. That's 4 silver a stack, or about 48 silver for the days work.

Ok, so I excitedly go into my new workshop to get a quest. I get a quest to make 10 Shaped Forged Iron Long Swords. I'm thinking no problem, I have the iron and literally everything else that can possibly be harvested in any tier 1 or 2 zone. I'm used to paying 6 copper for coal and such, and maybe a little more for other parts, but I like to obtain my own materials. It just feels better that way doesn't it?

And then I drill down through the recipe and notice the requirement for an Eolith Temper. I look through everything possible, and finally come here, which maybe I should have done first

Well, right now I'm looking at the broker window in my workshop. The least expensive Eolith Temper is 3 silver 50 copper. Pristine ones start at 9 silver.

So basically, I can earn 4 silver farming a whole stack of raw materials, but that will only buy me one temper? That means I can afford to smith up to 12 whole items each full day of play? How long will it take me just to get from level 12 to 13 as an outfitter at that cost?

Who thinks this is a good way to run the game? Because real life economies don't work like that.

EQ2 seems a lot more role play oriented than EQ1, is one reason I like it. So please don't tell me to make and level a bot just to get Eolith Tempers - that's too much trouble, I'm not going to do it. Also, they made great effort to make the game as realistic and detailed as possible for tradeskills - it really does feel like I'm in a workshop - so you tell me how it fits in with this for me to clone a limited use Minime and shortcut the system that was intended. It doesn't fit in at all, and in fact that seems like cheating (even though I know it isn't, people have the right to make four characters and do whatever with them if they please), but you can't tell me that the game designers planned on people short cutting the system like this. I don't want to be playing EQ2 in its little mythical world and just breakaway to a bot character everytime I need parts that are not available or feasible to obtain in the economy on my server.

And I don't have the time to develop extensive contacts for tradeouts of items or whatever. So if this is how it's going to be, am I best off just stopping now and looking for another use of my discretionary time?

My character in EQ1 has the title Expert Artisan, so I know what it means to spend five years maxing tradeskills. Tradeskills in EQ2 are way more fun than in EQ1, and I don't want them to be easy. But advancing under this system seems more than hard, it seems impossible. It is definitely impossible if I have to rely upon gougers for simple components and I'm not willing to shortcut the whole purpose of the game by making a second character.

[duotron]

Personally I joined a guild with a solid Tradeskill base, we cross exchange sub-combines for free. I get 20 Tempers for every 10 iron spikes a scholar needs and I give away 6 slot bags by the dozen, but I get stacks of pelts without ever leaving WW.

-Duo

[Burns]

Supply and demand. Supply and demand. Say it with me. Supply and demand.



















If you think they are overpriced, make a scholar and sell them for cheaper and make a million!

[Korin]

I've already made a craftsman for my needs, I will make a scholar soon too. I saw the rediculous prices on the consigners, and I think currently its only showing some of the products for sale. When they fix it then I will use it.

[Burns]

Did you scroll though the pages of merchandise on the broker?

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

That's 4 silver a stack, or about 48 silver for the days work

That is mistake #1. If your selling 20 tier two gathered resources for only 4 silver your cutting your protential earning down to only 25 % of what they can be.

Do your WHOLESALER TASKS! They pay 12 silver for 15 of any applicable resource. Gather as much tier two resources as you can. Go to your wholesaler. Get a task. Have a friend trade you the appropriate resource from your inventory in single units. That is 6 single resources a trade. This will count off your quest credit bar. Once you reach 15, with those resources STILL ON YOU (very important) simply double click the same npc. Those 15 resources will be deleted from you inventory, you will get 12 silver and get credit with your wholesaler with tradeskill status.

No this is not a bug since the required resources are deleted from your inventory permanently when the task is done.

[Ixnay]

Did you scroll though the pages of merchandise on the broker?

Yeah, there is no doubt I know that when it says Page 1 of 3, I click on "Last" to get to the last page and thus see the lowest prices. That is the range I quoted you - from a low of almost 4 silver to a high exceeding 9 silver.

Per temper.

Do your WHOLESALER TASKS! They pay 12 silver for 15 of any applicable resource.

Do the math with me here. If I did what you suggest, and say did THREE WHOLESALER TASKS within the 6 to 8 hour hardcore play period I described, running back and forth from Commonlands to my district, we are still only talking about a haul of 45 silver for the day. Except for having some miscellaneous stuff left to sell for a pittance, I am in the exact same postition as the one I described above.

And people, please stop with the suggestions about multiple characters and accounts. Neither the chemistry nor alchemy skills in this game enable cloning. I checked.

[Ixnay]

Have a friend trade you the appropriate resource from your inventory in single units. That is 6 single resources a trade. This will count off your quest credit bar.

I have never claimed to be a smart man, sir, but if what you're saying is true, trust me, this is an exploit and was not intended - I'm not going to do it, and you shouldn't either.