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Old 11-18-2006, 12:29 AM   #1
Lace
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Default My personal observations on getting to 350

Okay on Crushbone I hit 350 first, big deal, send out the band etc.

The cons
I knew it would take alot of loam, not unexpected from what I had read, but the no trade aspect dismays me and folks in my guild seeing my discovery a great deal. While I understand the cheat is to commission, I am not a proponent of the commission system as a crafter. It tells me folks don't trust the reputation I have spent 2 years building on my various crafters. To introduce a new crafter and basically force them to stand around and work this comission system is beyond me. Perhaps I don't grasp the situation but that is the only workaround I am seeing on the boards for selling my no trade items I worked very hard to gain skill to make.


The pros
They wanted to introduce a challenge to crafters and they did in the sheer volume of raws required. This however I don't think reflects on crafters as a whole, becuase in order to achieve lets say t7 crafting on a non adventuring toon you need one or more of the following: Total Guild support, Huge bank account. I think the secondary skills break the idea of a pure crafter possibly. Perhaps I am wrong but just my random first impressions. It has the potential to become an 'elite' tradeskill class once the no trade crap is removed.

My Personal Tips
While skilling up you may get lets say alot of t2 loam and you are excited to move to t3 and make those new things ... great do that if you think you can sell or commission them, but for skill ups .. use the lowest tier/cheapest tier loam you can get your hands on. On my server at least you could get a cheaper tier item for less cost - now if you are or have spent the hundreds or hours harvesting - ignore the buying part - but listen to the part about exhaust your previous tier loams before moving to white next tier ones.

I may be wrong but what I found was the blue tier below me recipes tended to give equal/same and in some cases better skill up chances as the white con ones in the tier I was in, Green was not good to me.

Another tip somewhere in the t4 or 5 range you can create a portable workbench which lasts for 5 minutes/5charges and recast of 15 minutes per instance of the machine. This was extremely handy in my personal quest to 350 because as I was out harvesting I could take a break, use my harvests and gain skill ups while still in a harvesting zone. Yes, the duration on the workbenches and like items are short in 5 minutes but if you are out and about and want to use your resources its quite handy.

Summary
I enjoyed tinkering alot, but the no trade bothers me. If that were removed I would understand the tedious process involved, but with that implemented suddenly at live rather than beta feels like a slap in the face to crafters, our trustworthiness, the bulk of time many of us have spent building reputations, and a time sink to force those of us that adventure away from adventuring.

Thats my basic 2 cents for today heh.
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Old 11-23-2006, 10:49 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Lace View Post

Summary
I enjoyed tinkering alot, but the no trade bothers me. If that were removed I would understand the tedious process involved, but with that implemented suddenly at live rather than beta feels like a slap in the face to crafters, our trustworthiness, the bulk of time many of us have spent building reputations, and a time sink to force those of us that adventure away from adventuring.

.
Us developers have developed nice calluses on our hands from all the face slapping we seem to do...
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:14 PM   #3
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heheh. I have to say, Ngreth, as a long time developer and currently DBA of a rather large data warehouse that it amazes me the things that users will attribute to the sole influence of a single developer who was out to get their particular group. I hear it from Marketing, Fincance, Billing, etc.

Folks need to consider that there is typically a designer, analyst, QA folks, several layers of management, art people, marketing people, etc that basically make up a huge comittee that tell the developer what the end product has to be. Even if the developer could figure out what would please the largest amount of people for a game, he could not just go code it.

Kudos to the folks who were in on the EoF expansion, I saw ALOT fewer bugs that I have seen in some of the past expansions for EQ1 and EQ2. I know that one lone voice does not carry a great deal of weight, but I was very happy over all with how smoothly it went in, even if the committee made some decisions I didn't like. =p

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Old 11-23-2006, 08:41 PM   #4
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Maybe the no-trade flag was indeed a mistake, but if the idea is to prevent sharing of tinkered items why not use the attunable flag instead? Seems like the only things that should be no-trade are quest rewards, certain guild status items, and maybe some raid loot. Is there some design decision as to why they were made no-trade instead of attunable?

Certainly crafted items should be attunable instead of no-trade unless the purpose is for the crafter themself to only ever use the item. Since many people dont know about an item unless they see a link for it and seeing the item link in broker is frequently the first exposure, making items no-trade also makes it a lot harder for the tinkerer to drum up business for his wares. The commission system is a nice way to guarantee a custom craft job, but to force tinkerers to use it for all their sales does seem to be carrying things to the extreme.
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:49 AM   #5
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While having the option for the commission system does help deal with no-trade, it is unfortunate for those whose tinker is not their main adventurer, as they dont have that option. I realize they can then make trades with other tinkerers in the same boat, but to be honest, I rather like seeing the 'made by' of my gear be me, and I think other crafters feel the same way. I think the frustration for most folk stems from so many of the tinkered items being flagged no trade, rather then just a few particularly 'good' ones.
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Old 11-24-2006, 04:01 PM   #6
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Default No TRADE?

I have been away for the Holiday since the Thursday after the launch of EoF and am disturbed about this.

Is it still the case that Tinkered items are NO TRADE - How the heck is someone like me who has a stable of crafters - who ALL make things for my other toons to make items for my other toons if they have to use th Commission system.

Please say this has been noted as a bug or to be changed "Feature" by SOE.
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:56 AM   #7
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I can live with the no-trade tag (although to me its lame... the point of the attuned tag seems perfect here if SOE wants to make tinkered gear one-person use), what I can't live with is the required tinkering skill.

So much of the nifty stuff requires you to be a tinkerer to use it, and that "just ain't right" (to use a colloquialism). The idea of a "gadget" is something that, although complex to manufacture/repair and understand, is useable with relative ease (even if it often/sometimes/occasionally malfunctions). Do I have to understand this "fancy thinkin' box" (to quote a local raido station DJ) to really use it? No, the theory of its parts and everything, or the theory of its code, is completely unrelated to my ability to use it (well, mostly unrelated, but I'm not splitting my own hairs ).

Anywhoo, thats my take on it.
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Old 12-01-2006, 12:38 PM   #8
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I've only delved part way into this, and have noticed the 2 things that is making this a bit of a nightmare, and both have been said here.
No Trade (should have been Attunable)
Tinkerer (XXX) I shouldn't have to be able to build the item to use the item. This is the equivalent of saying you can't use a Rifle unless you built the rifle, or you can't play EQ2 unless you were one of the developers.

A huge part of my frustration is that my Tradeskiller isn't my Adventurer.

This Link is from EQ2Players, where everyone is looking for an explanation on the No Trade/Tinkerer only items.
http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/e...sage.id=123497

I'm really curious as to what we need to do in order to get this changed to the way it should be. What volume of Feedback and Bugs do they need, or where the messages need to get to about this.
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Old 12-05-2006, 02:46 PM   #9
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The issue with so much of it being no trade, or tinker-only, was apparently due to a decision/vision somewhere in the chain of command that tinkering would be mostly a selfish sort of tradeskill. Things for you, the tinker, to use in aiding with your adventuring. Often items so complex that non-tinkers either couldn't understand how to use them (tinker only items) as well as ones that required detailed explanations of their workings before handing them over to a non-tinker (no trade that can be obtained by going through the commission system).

Sadly, this vision was NEVER explained to us in beta, nor was it seen with the items in beta. It came out after launch, and I never got permission for a direct quote to the masses about it.

As far as I know, there's still been no dev post in any public forum regarding this, but it is intentional.
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:09 PM   #10
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Sadly, this vision was NEVER explained to us in beta, nor was it seen with the items in beta. It came out after launch, and I never got permission for a direct quote to the masses about it.

As far as I know, there's still been no dev post in any public forum regarding this, but it is intentional.
And that's the crux of the problem I think there would be a lot less unhappiness now if people had known up front the vision. As it is, an awful lot of people started tinkerers on alts for convenience or roleplaying reasons, only to be bitten by the no-trade and tinkering skill requirements. Had everyone known up front, and been able to decide on that basis, there would be less wailing now I think. I know my husband's young gnome is going tinker for roleplay reasons, but on a purely practical basis it would make considerably more sense for our mains, for instance....
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:24 PM   #11
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(*cough*)WoW Engineering(*cough*)
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Old 12-05-2006, 03:55 PM   #12
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(*cough*)WoW Engineering(*cough*)
Aye, and as such I'm not entirely surprised by 'the vision', just disappointed that it wasn't made clear in Beta, so people knew what to expect. Even a quick announcement right after go-live would have helped. At least, unlike EQ 1 tinkering, it isn't also race restricted!
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:13 PM   #13
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All I can say is that hopefully, if enough of us feedback it they'll change it.

I'm an engineering student. And let me tell you, the design of something is to make it easy to use.

I have only a marginal idea of how my pocket watch works. I couldn't repair it if it seriously broke.

But I can set the time on it and see what time it is.

Thats what tinkered items should be. You gotta know a lot to make them (and repair them, or make 'batteries' to recharge them) but half of the design is making them so that someone without all that knowledge can use them.

--

As an aside, a "selfish" tradeskill makes no sense to me, unless it's a tradeskill everyone can freely persue. IE, you could be a tinkerer and a transmuter.
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:57 PM   #14
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Reasons for a "selfish" tradeskill:
* Balance (can make more powerful/oddball things because fewer will have it)
* Extra money sinks (because of the lure of above)
* Trade-offs (makes more "unique" things about some character)

As for needing the skill versus ease of use, consider the initial evoluation of any technology. The folks firing those trebuchets, or at least in charge of firing them, were also typically the folks who were typically in charge of building them too - one went with the other.

What about the initial cars? While one could argue they might not be able to build the car, they sure needed to know a heck of a lot about it. And even today the high-end items are basically restricted to those who know more about it, to the point of being able to install those items themselves.

Even with today's stuff, while there's no "skill" per say, there is an expectation of a certain level of understanding of modern devices, which could roughly translate that all of us have some "modern device" skill.

As far as no-drop, well, that's always been a problem. It's not like a bio-metric security device that can only be imprinted with one user once! Heh. But hey, if you can accept "binding" a boring sword so you can't give it to anyone else, I'm sure you can accept "no drop" tinkers boots or whatever.
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:57 AM   #15
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I agree with your reasons Zen... TS filled many of those roles in EQ1. The thing I don't like is forcing people into a choice of it or not it...

In a sense, with tinkering as it is now, both are designed for the adventurer. Tinkering for hte obvious reasons stated above, and transmuting for all the drops the adventurer gets, especially no-trade ones (many in the form of quest rewards).
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Old 12-06-2006, 12:07 PM   #16
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Yup, that would be a tradeoff. Wonder if they'll offer subskill respecs later down the road. Heh.
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Old 12-06-2006, 02:37 PM   #17
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You can change now Zen, you just reset to skill 1 in the new one for secondary TSkills =)
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:02 PM   #18
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Well then! Problem solved! Keep all your spare items until you're full, then transmute them, and switch back to tinkering to use all those nifty items! Just hope you like pain!
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Old 12-06-2006, 03:49 PM   #19
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LOL.

That'd be a masochist's delight
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Old 12-24-2006, 01:47 PM   #20
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I'm fully aware that it was intentional. It doesn't mean that I, or anyone else out there, likes it.

I mean, someone that uses potions, has an edge over someone that doesn't. On the flip side, it costs to create the potions, and you need the harvests.
Tinkering will be limited in the same way.

I've also noticed that a good chunk of the Tinkered items (if not all) do not affect Epic Mobs, which is about the only place where it would be of significant benifit.

Like someone else above, my little level 14 gnome is my tinkerer, and will never be able to use 3/4 the stuff he will make if I progress him any further.

I was really excited to start Tinkering when it came out no matter how useless the items may have been, and now...

I've given up with the frustration, and requested that my transmuter skill be erased so I can start tinkering with her. It just really sucks to loose several pp to discover that, somone in the chain decided to steal an idea from Blizzard, and not follow their own design (Never had a trade/use issue with EQ1 tinkered items).
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:28 AM   #21
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What bothers me most about the new tradeskills, both tinkering and transmuting, is the return to EQ1 tradeskill mechanics of finger-crossing and rabbit foots when it comes to leveling. I much prefer the steady increases of the EQ2 tradeskills, and would much rather see the new tradeskills use it. The grind can get rough, I know, but at least you see progress and know how long its going to take to get to the next level.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:25 PM   #22
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Bow before the RNG, for it is your god...

These TSes aren't meant to be easy... and they certainly aren't hehe. It's luck. And you're talking to a person that's spent >100kpp in EQL on making tradeskill totems. I've felt the cold, cruel hand of the RNG heh.

(RNG = Random Number Generator... not Ranger )
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Old 06-11-2007, 06:56 AM   #23
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Ugh! I am gonna shoot the random number generator. I started tinkering on Saturday only got to skill 5 before I had to take a break and ask myself if I really wanted to do this. First it took forever to find loams and I am not gonna pay 3s+ per loams thats just nuts even if I do have the money. Second and probably the worst was that I had a long sting of no skill ups. I made the lowest level cross-trainers and I made about 6-7 without a skill up and it bugged me to no end. They were red to me. It should have been an almost guaranteed skill up. Third it takes forever to make something, id say about twice as long or greater to make one item.

One thing I did notice that if you just spam the +progress/durability % chance of failure skills you will not miss a pristine. But it still takes forever. Makes me thing of trying to make a macro to just hit both skills . . . now I just need one of those little drinking birds to "peck" my mouse button so I can get some reading in
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Old 06-14-2007, 12:25 PM   #24
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It doesn't take too deep of pockets or too much time to get tinkering to 350 I found.....I started Saturday morning and was 350 by the following Wednesday (and I was far from hardcore about it -- if you went straight thru and had the materials on-hand, you could do it in 2 days I would bet). Total cost in purchased components (including fuel and raws) was 3p, and that could have been substantially lower if I wasn't lazy about my buying habits and actually went out forraging more (in my case, I was optomizing for speed of advancement and not frugality). I do strongly disagree with the assessment on con-of-recipe versus skillups, it was night and day difference doing white con versus anything else and if you want to advance fastest, you want to be doing white-con (this won't necessarily be CHEAPEST, but it will be FASTEST).

As for methodology, just do +Progress until first bar is full, the stop. Yes, you don't get as much resource returned, but you have same chance for skillup and it is substantially faster turn-around. Again, optimized for speed, not cost.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:06 PM   #25
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this also means we can forget about slowing our exp on leveling to get AAS
because we HAVE to level to lvl 70 to get the best benifit from our tinkerers

thats not right

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