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Old 03-22-2005, 02:49 PM   #1
kieroth_whiteleaf
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Default Damage Ratings?

If this has been done to death somewhere let me know, but I've not been able to find anything on it. If this should be in the weaponsmith section feel free to move, but since it applies to woodworkers too I thought this was probably the right place.

How does the comparison between dual wield and one handed weapons work? I.E., would it be better to have two weapons with a DR of 6.9 or a single weapon with 11.1?

CURRENTLY, my ranger has (tres sucky) two pristine iron leafblades, both of which are rated at 6.9. I could switch to the pristine iron cutlass my weaponsmith made last night, for a DR of 11.1. Would that be an upgrade because 11.1 > 6.9 or would it be a downgrade because 11.1 < 13.8 (2 x 6.9)? Or is there some other multiplier/factor to consider (like offhand weapon counting for "less" or something)?

As it stands now, back when the weapons were white to me (currently blue, I'm planning to upgrade to carbonite as soon as my weaponsmith finishes leveling to them.. 6 more to go..) I was usually either the top or second dps in any group I was in (assuming comparable levels.. if someone was way higher they obviously were doing more dps) so I'm fairly happy with the leafblades, I just want to make sure I'm using the best available gear (that's tradeskill-made.. I take pride in using my own stuff). Leafblades are slow but they pack a pretty good punch damage-wise, and I haven't noticed (although I'm working on some comparisons) any dual wield weapons I can use (ranger) that are higher DR.

It's also going to be a factor when I start comparing weapons on my monk.

Thanks,
SFG
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:09 PM   #2
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I'm not sure that anyone can answer this yet. Basically, it all depends on what formulae is used to calculate the damage rating. If the formula is similar to (Average Damage)/delay, then two weapons will probably give you more damage IF and ONLY IF the single weapon has the same rating as one of the doubles.

Since most non-dual wield weapons do have higher ratings than dual wields, it muddles the water a bit. Extensive testing over 29 levels has led me to inconclusive info...but I SEEM to do better with dual wields.

Now, if the formula for damage rating is different, say, Expected damage/period of time, then the single weapon with the higher rating will be better.

Like I said, I'm not sure anyone knows for sure....yet. Some number crunchers out there are bound to run some tests eventually, I am sure.
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:34 PM   #3
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Keep in mind that melee damage is a fairly small fraction of your total dps. And as far as I know, the weapon's damage rating does not factor into ability damage at all. So a change in weapon damage rating of around 10% would probably equate to a 1-2% change in overall dps. That kind of difference wouldn't even show up except in the most rigorous of parses, so IMO don't even worry about it. Just use whichever looks cooler. :P
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Old 03-22-2005, 04:59 PM   #4
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Before they changed equipment to be attuned I played around a bit with all the different weapons my Outfitter could make for my Pred. What I found was that Leafblades were the sleeper weapon for me. As was pointed out they are alittle slow but Delay doesnt mean a thing when you are using specials. Also despite only hitting half as much as some of the faster weapons I was using they did anywhere from 2x and up as much damage. The clincher for me was on my backstabs and other specials. They just seemed to do more damage with the Leafblades. Alot more damage. So I have stuck with my Leafblades and am still happy with them as 24.8. Though now I find that I can do more damage to a critter with my Bow before he gets to me than I can with a backstab. Like if they all hit you can kill Greens before they reach you, or have a blue just needing a quick HO to end it. You really suck through the arrows though. So I would recommend getting a Jewler to make you Makeshift Arrow App4 or Adept 3. (gives you +5 arrows for every level above App1)

Sorry for the sidetrack. Short version.......see creatures die alot faster with Dualwield than with out (specially using poison) and out of the ones I tried Leafblades seem to be the best.

Another quick side note....Poisons....if you are not using them you should be. They work with Bows, Melee, and Specials. They last 12hours or till you croak. They have multiple charges. And 46, 36, and then 26 every 6 seconds (Mordant Goo ~3silver for a 5charge) may not be alot of damage at 20+ it is more than a single hit from one of our weapons without a special is.
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Old 03-22-2005, 06:54 PM   #5
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i am a weaponsmith and the leafblades are preferred for backstabs although the faster weapons some people like for posions. ya are gonna want high agi so stcik with DW weapons that give that and around 1.5 delay mainhand, offhand your choice lol. if you are on kithkor look me up and i'll give you a good weapon at cost and let ya parse so we'll know what is best THEN ya can pay for stuff lol.


make sure to upgrade your skills because they do more damage than your weapons.
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Old 03-23-2005, 01:13 AM   #6
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Parsing has been done that shows Poisons will proc the same no matter if DW or Sword and Board. The proc rate seems to be linked to the delay on the wep. This being said, many of your CA's will change the Damage you do (view this by inspecting the skill) depending on what weps you have equipped at the time. Sorry to hijack the thread

Good info for Player Made Poison

The most comprehensive discussion about Poison's
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Old 03-23-2005, 09:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Parsing has been done that shows Poisons will proc the same no matter if DW or Sword and Board. The proc rate seems to be linked to the delay on the wep.
Am I the only one confused by this statment? If its tied to weapon delay then having 2 fast weapons would proc a lot more often then one slow weapon. Unless you are saying a slower weapon will proc exactly the same number of times as a faster one over the course of a fight...

Your statement imples (to me anyway) that no matter what weapon(s) I have equipmed my poison will always proc a random number of times between x and y during the course of a fight.
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:03 AM   #8
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Belwolf -

Thanks for the offer, but I'm on crushbone and I've got a weaponsmith already (well, can't make carbonite yet, but that's my goal for this week.. he's 18 atm) - plus with attune your thing doesn't work so hot anymore Cool way to do business tho. We need ingame escrow for stuff like that Usually not necessary (especially with attuning) because I trust most of my clients, but still a neat concept.

Everyone else:

Anyone have any idea how DR is calculated? I did some playing around with some simple equations on my calculator and I couldn't get anything even close - On my cutlass I had a formula that got within .1 of it, but then when I tried it on the leafblade I was off by like 3 points so clearly it was just coincidence that the first lined up.

I'm pretty smart on math (teach it sometimes even) but I know there's a lot of you here that are better at seeing patterns and way better at math. Looks like it's semi-complicated and once it gets past a certain point I don't even know where to start.

It's also possible that it's something simple and I'm just looking past it.

SFG
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:04 AM   #9
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Quote:
Parsing has been done that shows Poisons will proc the same no matter if DW or Sword and Board. The proc rate seems to be linked to the delay on the wep. This being said, many of your CA's will change the Damage you do (view this by inspecting the skill) depending on what weps you have equipped at the time.
This bug was fixed in recent patches. Art damage is not supposed to be tied to weapons at all exept in a few rare instances.
Quote:
Am I the only one confused by this statment? If its tied to weapon delay then having 2 fast weapons would proc a lot more often then one slow weapon.
What he means is that the speed of a weapon influences how often procs from poison fire such that it is a constant rate.

Ergo: Faster weapons proc less per swing to reach proc rate X.
Slower weapons proc MORE per swing to also reach the same proc rate of X.

That is what he means by influence by weapons speed. The oproc rate of X is standard. Adjustments are done by the system so that fast or slow weapons have the same average procs per time period so proccing is a set value.

I guess the answer to DW questions would be if anyone has parsed to see how DW works. Does it give you two attacks every time interval (one with each weapon) or is it like EQ 1 where it does a skill check and when successful you get the additional attack? and is this even parsable.

It is generally my experience purely from observation (so this could be 100% wrong) that if you use a tier X weapon that is 1H or the same tier weapons of DW that DW does more damage. That is supposed to be the whole point. You give up the definate advantage of a shield to do more melee DPS.
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilfalas Elaandrin
I guess the answer to DW questions would be if anyone has parsed to see how DW works. Does it give you two attacks every time interval (one with each weapon) or is it like EQ 1 where it does a skill check and when successful you get the additional attack? and is this even parsable.
Actually I think it has been stated that, unlike EQ1, there is no skill check required to swing your offhand weapon. Here is a link to a small discussion on the EQ2 forums, the last post summarizes what I think I've seen in official posts accurately.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/e...id=5512#M34380

Thanks,

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Old 03-24-2005, 12:46 AM   #11
kieroth_whiteleaf
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Even if there's no skill check (and I DON'T know this, that's why I'm asking) is it that each weapon attacks independently as if they were both "primary", or is there some kind of modifier on your "offhand" (like offhand does 75% dps or something)?

Anyone done any parsing on this?

Given some of the posts it would *SEEM* like they simply add (making my leafblades a good call) but I'm hoping some research junkie out there actually has done studies or something I've seen stranger things researched by people around here

SFG
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:40 AM   #12
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Going to give the short version here that you can find on many scout boards. Feel free to go looking, but I don't have the links handy. You can also find this type of discussion on the main boards, but there's more junk to sort through.

Dual Wielding: Each weapon operates independently with no modifiers. Each is essentially "primary" as you would know it from EQ1. "Offhand" is an EQ1 concept. If you look enough, you'll find this confirmed by Moorgard.

Damage Potential (no known links to Damage Rating that I know of right now): Dual wielding, with no CAs, does about 125% of the damage that a one-hander of comparable quality does. YMMV. When you factor in poisons, with the inverse relation of proc'ing to speed, one-handers typically gain a bit, but still maintain the lead. When you factor in CAs, the potential typically favors weapons with delays around or greater than the time the CA takes because the swing "recharge" time happens during the CA with the result that you have a high tendency to do a regular swing immediately after a CA unless you time your abilities.

Everything, of course, is dependent upon your actual situation. Just take this as a guide and put two and two together with your situation. I've purposely left details out - if you really want them, again, go check the scout boards and some of the mainboards.

Now, having said that, my personal opinion is that the best weapons for my assassin are the slowest dual wielders I can find - CAs don't take a big chunk out of regular damage output (which admittedly is very small in comparison), poison has a higher rate of proc'ing per swing, but I still more swings per unit time than one-handers. (Although I don't know if anyone has looked into whether the proc will go off regardless of a hit or miss.) And finally, if I'm solo'ing, I always go with a shield and a one-hander. I've found (no parsing, just observation) that it hurts less.

Anyway, take what you will, ignore what you want!
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Old 03-24-2005, 07:55 AM   #13
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I agree that no matter what weapon you equip the proc rate is constant. So it is proc per time unit not per swing.

With imbue weapons you can compare a 2hander with dual wield. proc per minute seems the same. Overall damage is close to the same. Damage rating seems to be a good indication of overall dps. 2 10's equal one 20.

Sony made the modle much simpler than the wacky code of eq1. Balance is closer, and the edge of one weapon vs the next is almost nil(specials make the % small)

The resist check for slash, crush, pierce make a big difference when fighting a mob.

level 47 weaponsmith with tons of feedback...I tell my customers it is all in the average damage per time. Take min, max damage of weapon divide by 2 for average...divide by delay...and larger is better. (this is where the rating sony gives comes from...based on it at least for relative differences)

Like mention before in posts. If mele damage is a small percentage of overall dps then having a 20dps sabre vs a 19.6dps leafblade makes no difference.

I actually believe the number are rounded and all the weapons with equal rating (player made) have identical dps...and they make the damage in round numbers line up with the delay,,,but the dps is the real figure they work to.

Thus min,max,divide by 2 divide by delay comes to a number that is not a acurate one but an estimate...meaning 19.64 is the same as 19.53, or 20.25 they all are the same table rating of say 20? just rounded differently.

Pure math has the sabre as the best though. Using the rating they are all the same...I really think they are all the same.

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Old 03-24-2005, 08:37 AM   #14
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Good post Moose. You said what I tried to say in easier terms.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:48 PM   #15
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I wish I had saved the post by Gordon (Abashi) on the boards during beta. He gave the best description of how dw works in EQ2. I'll try to describe it:

Your main hand weapon delay is the "tick" time interval.
Your main hand weapon swings every tick.
When your secondary weapon delay time comes around it is queued to fire at the next main hand tick.
The delay of secondary starts counting again at the time of the queueing.
You only ever swing your secondary on ticks of the main (never swing secondary alone).

Code:
Example with a main delay of 4 and a secondary delay of 6:
Main: |---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Sec:  |-----x-|---|-----x-|---|-----x-|---|
(bah, this doesnt line up right.  first and last pipe should align)
The pipes are swings, the x is when queueing occurs.
So in terms of a significant time frame (more than a few main hand ticks) the weapons are effectively independent. Not sure why they implemented it this way. Maybe it makes for better optimized animations when theres only two cases: swing main, swing both.

I have no idea if a faster secondary results in some ticks where its supposed to fire twice or if it results in a lost swing since I dont play a dw class.

Anyways, thats how they described the system.

Last edited by Ngreth Thergn; 03-26-2005 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Made it line up by wraping it in code tags which forces a monospaced font. If you need further editing feel free to remove this remark :)
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Old 03-26-2005, 05:40 AM   #16
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From what I've read currently (doesn't mean it's right!), each weapon is actually independent, unlike what appears to have been mentioned in beta. (*shrug*) This one is a bit more open to question as the timing involved starts becoming subject to lag due to precise timing questions in many cases.
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Old 03-26-2005, 09:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zendaken

Dual Wielding: Each weapon operates independently with no modifiers. Each is essentially "primary" as you would know it from EQ1. "Offhand" is an EQ1 concept. If you look enough, you'll find this confirmed by Moorgard.
You can’t imagine how happy I was to hear this in Beta. The debates over weapon damage output were sensational on EQLive. I can appreciate number crunchers, but the lengths people would go to calculate and micromanage every aspect of the game was nearly neurotic.
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