Sages... worth picking?

[Tsulin]

When I first started I immediately decided I wanted to make my own spells and jumped on board for the Sage idea. As a Scholar very close to a 20 ding the choice is upon me and I must say Scholar now seems like a bad choice. Sure, you can make spells. But that is just_about_it. You are heavily dependent on an Alchemist to make inks. Making ink is_not_fun because of the high number of subcombines required, so I find it unlikely people will be overly happy to make these for you all the time or sell them for non-trivial prices... I know I wouldn't for the work involved. Thus I want to be able to make them for myself, even though making a stack of ink takes me the better part of an hour. And since it is the main component for spells they have to be pristine or they are worthless to me. Keep in mind that whether your spell is made on crude or pristine DOES make a difference on at least some spells. This is not conjecture; I have seen it first-hand on a few spells(most of the priest archetype spells I made this is true for and there is no way for me to scribe the later-made superior versions of the same app3's over the inferior). I have not seen it recently on any of the closer to 20th level spells I have been making but only because I havent failed one in forever after I realized the easy way to guarantee you will never fail a combine: at all times keep the 4 power-free hotkeys depressed, constantly clicking them. Not only do I not fail by doing this, but I end 99.99% of my combines with full durability and since I am doing so much clicking my skill always stays at the max for level. As of right now I am enjoying the spell making as a whole, but that is because of my self-sufficience to make all my own inks, quills and paper(this is because you can scribe the level 10 books of all the other classes which contain these vital recipes). If in the future the only thing I get to do is make a spell on occasion after buying all the components off an alchemist and woodworker then my experience as a tradeskiller shall be to make a spell every blue moon after paying nearly as much in components as I might have paid for the spell directly... am I missing something? WE HAVE NO RECIPIES BEYOND JUST SPELLS. Anyway, if someone could fill me in on a good reason to actually pick a sage rather than all the obvious reasons not to I would love it. Oh and sorry that this was more of a rant than anything... this decision is really upsetting me the more I think about it.

[Tashim]

paragraphs are your friend.

Keep in mind that whether your spell is made on crude or pristine DOES make a difference on at least some spells. This is not conjecture.

What evidence of this do you have? As, I too have crafted spells using both crafted and storebought components (resulting in "shaped" and "pristine" spells) I've made these for all archetypes, and have never noticed any difference between a poorly-crafted spell and a pristine one.

[Tsulin]

I didn't take screenshots if that is what you want. My proof is that I have two app3 scrolls in my bank atm that cost less power than the current app3s I have scribed ( I believe they are the spells minor healing and weakness). I am not about to figure out how to screenshot this and post it just so you can trust me more. Others have noticed this as well and I don't read or post on the official boards to find out if this is a bug or working as intended. Personally the fact that they have the *exact* same name but a different power stat is stupid, but imo a pristine *should* be better than a crude; it honestly just doesnt make sense otherwise. Note also this can be noticed with certain things, like Canine Saliva i'm sure everyone has noticed has 2 versions w/ different prices and they dont stack as well as a few other items in the game. The same name doesn't mean the item is necessarily the same. Anyway, it might be a bug, but it is/was in the game on at least the lower level archetype priest spells and I would bet others as well.

[Grei]

Well, it's been my experience that Sage is probably going to be the most popular choice because every caster and their cousin will be wanting to make their own upgrades instead of paying someone else for the upgrades (and at the rates I've seen on some, I don't exactly blame them).

Now, as a Scholar, it's too bad you don't want to be an Alchemist since that's where the money will be. Think about what you just said--Sages are stuck needing inks from Alchemists. That and Carpenter is probably the two most profitable choices out there--since every caster and thier cousin will be wanting to make their own upgrades. ;)

Grei

[BlueMystic_28]

I didn't take screenshots if that is what you want. My proof is that I have two app3 scrolls in my bank atm that cost less power than the current app3s I have scribed ( I believe they are the spells minor healing and weakness). I am not about to figure out how to screenshot this and post it just so you can trust me more. Others have noticed this as well and I don't read or post on the official boards to find out if this is a bug or working as intended. Personally the fact that they have the *exact* same name but a different power stat is stupid, but imo a pristine *should* be better than a crude; it honestly just doesnt make sense otherwise. Note also this can be noticed with certain things, like Canine Saliva i'm sure everyone has noticed has 2 versions w/ different prices and they dont stack as well as a few other items in the game. The same name doesn't mean the item is necessarily the same. Anyway, it might be a bug, but it is/was in the game on at least the lower level archetype priest spells and I would bet others as well.
Okay I'm not 100% on this, but doesn't the Power cost of a spell change from when you see it on a scroll to when you scribe it? IE when you scribe it, it adapts to your level etc.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I didn't take screenshots if that is what you want. My proof is that I have two app3 scrolls in my bank atm that cost less power than the current app3s I have scribed ( I believe they are the spells minor healing and weakness). I am not about to figure out how to screenshot this and post it just so you can trust me more. Others have noticed this as well and I don't read or post on the official boards to find out if this is a bug or working as intended. Personally the fact that they have the *exact* same name but a different power stat is stupid, but imo a pristine *should* be better than a crude; it honestly just doesnt make sense otherwise. Note also this can be noticed with certain things, like Canine Saliva i'm sure everyone has noticed has 2 versions w/ different prices and they dont stack as well as a few other items in the game. The same name doesn't mean the item is necessarily the same. Anyway, it might be a bug, but it is/was in the game on at least the lower level archetype priest spells and I would bet others as well.

Scribed IN your book is DIFFERENT than loose unscribed. If there are 2 different costs on UNscribed, then that is proof. The costs DO change once scribed unfortunately (that is a different bug, or a feature of some sort either level or something. maybe the efficiency stays the same so that as the power of the spell goes up by character level the power cost goes up, but the efficiency of the spell (effect/power) stays the same.)

it is as easy as printscreen key on your keyboard to take a screenshot btw :)

and while I agree that pristine should be better than crude, it has been said that there is no difference by Ben (on the now deleted Beta boards so no link for ya)

What specific App3 is it please so that I can truly test this?

In a way I hope you ARE correct. But unfortunately need more to prove it.

[BlueMystic_28]

In a way I hope you ARE correct. But unfortunately need more to prove it.
The thing is as it stands now if he is correct then the potential for ripping people off is huge. No one would want to buy anything from someone they didnt trust is this was true because each level of scroll has the same name. I guess you could compare Power costs if the two did list differently, but still a nightmare for the buyer.

[Ngreth Thergn]

The thing is as it stands now if he is correct then the potential for ripping people off is huge. No one would want to buy anything from someone they didnt trust is this was true because each level of scroll has the same name. I guess you could compare Power costs if the two did list differently, but still a nightmare for the buyer.

True... But this may be a case where the buyer needs to be educated and know the different level costs. It would just be nice if pristine made a difference other than exp for the Scholar.

I truly do believe that it is just a difference in when you actually have it scribed. I truly believe that the efficency of the spell stays the same, but the COST will change over time as the effect of the spell also changes.

[BlueMystic_28]

True... But this may be a case where the buyer needs to be educated and know the different level costs. It would just be nice if pristine made a difference other than exp for the Scholar.

I truly do believe that it is just a difference in when you actually have it scribed. I truly believe that the efficency of the spell stays the same, but the COST will change over time as the effect of the spell also changes.
I agree on both points:

1. It would be nice if Quality made a difference (as it stands Sage is probably the Class that is the least challenging and most grinding-type. Although the XP from scrolls is actually really good).

2. I believe it is just scribed vs unscribed power cost. I believe it adapts to your level when you scribe it, reason being when I level up my Lightning Burst Spell does more dmg each level but the Power cost raises too usually, so Power is variable and related to level. Of course believeing it and having it proven are two different things. I really haven't tried to disprove this at all, probably should since I make 20+ App IIIs a day heh.

[Tsulin]

Ah, good points. I havent tried to make a crude on them now and compare the actual scrolls. I certainly wasn't aware of the power cost differing on the scroll versus the scribed version. I will check this out more thoroughly now. Too bad making Sepia ink is such a waste of time =p

Also, just as an aside, I chose Alchemist... which btw, is a completely unfair class. It has almost zero interdependence from the other classes and is instead depended on by them. An example of this is that all of the subcombines for the essence abilities for the fighter archetypes are made from alchemy plus a storebought reagent. Unless something changes alchemists will be soaring past their tradeskill brothers in no time and making a much larger profit as well. Sony needs to really change a lot of ts stuff imo... the system is pretty neat, but there are a decent few bugs(pristine finish giving crude, icon clicking pointing to the wrong recipes, the whole fiasco with spells, etc) atm as well as a LOT of imbalance.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Here is a screenshot with a shaped scroll, and a memed shapped scroll to show it does change by level. (Scroll on the left, memmed on the right)

But I WILL attempt to make a crude and a pristine version at some point to confirm it :) I just have not had time :) (I want to get harvesting up before I ding 10)

http://www.eqtraders.com/images/EQ2_000002.jpg

[Naech]

I recently tested 3 priest spells to check on quality differences. The power cost on a shaped Smite was 19, whereas the power cost on a Pristine Smite was 17. Minor Heal(I believe this one was crude or shaped) had a power cost of 24, while a pristine Minor Heal had a power cost of 20. There seemed to be no difference in the various versions of Courage.

Just to stop this response before it comes up, I was comparing two made SCROLLS, not a scroll and a scribed spell.

Since I'm still making spells for alts I can try to screenshot this and send it in, however I'm not sure how to go about that. Ngreth, if you want to send me an email to let me know what you need feel free.

-Naech
14 Scholar/15 Druid on Blackburrow

PS it's possible there was a difference in Courage, but it wasn't obvious from examing the two scrolls side by side...maybe the effect is has versus the power cost?

[Zendaken]

Naech, if you really want to check to see if there is a real difference, make two different priest characters and learn from two different scrolls. (Smite should be available to the level 3 priest.) THEN check to see what the differences are, not just in the scroll versions.

If there is a difference in the SCRIBED version, then we have a legitimate complaint/buyer-beware scenario.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Since I'm still making spells for alts I can try to screenshot this and send it in, however I'm not sure how to go about that. Ngreth, if you want to send me an email to let me know what you need feel free.


The "printscreen" button on your keyboard will take a screenshot :)

Then you can email it to admin@mboards.eqtraders.com to get it to me (then I will shrink it and reduce the file size so you don't have to worry about that)

The screenshot will be in your EQ directory (default is program files/Sony/Everquest II )

[Naech]

Thanks for the info Ngreth. I know about the printscreen, and where to find the file, just didn't know what your policy was on sending them in and whether they needed to be pre-shrunk.

As for the post above, I have two priest characters with different versions scribed, however they are 9 levels apart, so that won't show much. The scrolls themselves show a power usage difference, so I don't see the need to roll up another toon(especially since we only get 4) just to test this when the proof is already there. I offered the information because I thought it would be useful for people to know. If someone else wants to try scribing two different versions and pass their information along that would be great.

-Naech

[Zendaken]

Ok, was going to finally test this myself, so I set about making app3 smite spells. They're all listed as 9 power. I didn't make a shaped, but I made (at least) one of each of the others.

9 power is the same as a level 4 priest. Level 6 priest has power cost 11.