Eolith temper? Stroma wash

[Snapdragyn]

OK, I'm very confused. I got my first book for level 10 Outfitter recipes, & the basic (iron bar, tanned leather) recipes call for ingredients that aren't for sell on the society vendor. Do I have to start buying/trading from other traders for this stuff just to make the very most basic recipes? None of these components are on my server's broker. :(

[Moonshade]

Yes, until that society gets a high enough level to stock those necessities, you'll need a scholar buddy.

[Elyana]

You also can grab a copy of advanced scholar recipes vol 10 and scribe it yourself.

From other's posts I have read over on the EQ2 site, all artisans can scribe the scholar/ craftsman/ outfitter vol 10. Also this works with the first volume of your subclass tree. Sage/Jeweler/Alchemists all can scribe vol 20 of the series, Provisioner/Carpenter/Woodworker and Weaponsmith/Armorer/Tailor can do the same for the first book in their subclass as well.

[Korin]

Do you know if this is a bug or intended to allow tradeskillers to be self sufficient on basic skills?

[Elyana]

I think it is a coding issue where the skill to scribe is 50 and all artisans have that skill. Same for the scribing of the subclass volumes. When you ding 20 you have the skill to scribe all your branches subclass books in the same manner. Since I am only repeating what I read on the EQ2 forum I honestly don't know =) Because you cannot scribe ALL the subclasses vol 20 books (only those in your own branch) it does seem to be intended though, because if they based it on straight skill then you should be able to scribe all subclasses books at lvl 20.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Yes. This is a BUG.

The Dev's acknowledge it as a bug

here is the thing.

They are likely to REMOVE any recipes from people who should not have it when they fix the bug. SO... DO NOT ask for a refund, complain, etc when they are removed. You have been warned. They are not going to call it an exploit (though it is) and are not going to discipline people for using it. But don't come whining to them or to us (I promise to sumarilly delete such posts) when they are removed from your book.

[Velislyth]

Who's going to whine about having lost 5 silver on a skill when scholars are charging as much as 1-5 silver per eolith temper? If they were being anything close to reasonable, no one would care about a bug like this.

Maybe that's why the devs referred to this as a bug which has no real ETA on solving. Seeing if issues like the scholar pricing scheme are temporary/early price hikes that will eventually smooth out with supply/demand, or if they need to seriously rethink this particular part of the inter-class artisan dependence.

[Torval the Harvester]

Who's going to whine about having lost 5 silver on a skill when scholars are charging as much as 1-5 silver per eolith temper? If they were being anything close to reasonable, no one would care about a bug like this.

Maybe that's why the devs referred to this as a bug which has no real ETA on solving. Seeing if issues like the scholar pricing scheme are temporary/early price hikes that will eventually smooth out with supply/demand, or if they need to seriously rethink this particular part of the inter-class artisan dependence.

Ummm...sorry, but the first part is untrue, and the second part is both wildly speculative and directly contrary to what the devs actually said. I won't criticise you for scribing the books, I mean, I did as soon as it was downgraded from "potential exploit" to "long term bug" but it certainly hasn't been left in the game because a week into live the devs decided their entire concept of tradeskills is flawed. It was left in because they can't figure out how to fix it short of a massive overhaul of the entire system.

Artisans are meant to be interdependent. And btw, I've never seen anyone sell temper in that range. Maybe some people try, but I've never seen anyone actually *sell* it in that range. 50-60 copper seems to be normalish. I've got mine listed at 60 copper just to see if someone will bite, but it isn't exactly flying off the shelves. At 60 copper it's just barely worth my bother to buy more iron (or tourquise, or electrum, whatever I can find cheapest) and make more. That seems like a reasonable standard to me, and where I imagine the market will stabalize.

Just remember, you seem to be one of these people that is slotting in harvested materials as "free." They aren't free. They are worth whatever the market dictates they are worth. Even if you harvest them yourself you could still sell them, so they have value. When the raw materials to produce wash/resin/oil/temper (and temper is probably the cheapest) go from about 60c-1s, and then add 12c for candle/liquid, and then add time and trouble, 60-80c per is entirely reasonable. Now that you can make your own, why don't you "cash in" if you think this is too high? And if you can't be bothered, why not ask yourself why anyone else would bother selling as cheap as you seem to think they should?

I just wanted to answer the very polite poster who seemed to be asking if this was an intended feature. It isn't. While you might as well use it if everyone else is going to, get used to the idea that you are only getting a 10 level reprive from the intended system here. It will be waiting for you when you get to level 20.

I'm sure Outfitters generally are going to turn into the prima donnas of the artisan world, because we seem to produce a lot of finished products and not a lot of interim components that other people need. And so there will be people sitting around carping at how other artisans are gouging them just because those other artisans (shock!) seem to think they are entitled to a cut of our very large profit margins on finished goods. Well, get used to it, because I agree with them. I've got certain tier two products flying at what I consider to be obscene prices because now I can produce them alone. But let me tell you, if I had to buy every temper, and every wash, and every oil for 1 silver per, I'd still be making profit.

Anyway, if you already can't stand the fact that you are dealing with an open and somewhat unstable market when buying from other players....well, maybe this isn't the path for you.

[Sauro]

As an outfitter on the mistmoore server I have seen prices get way out of hand.

Eolith Vials, and Stroma wash's have been going for 1.25 silver each so I can vouch for outrageous prices.

Luckily I have money coming in fairly regularly but people are overcharging yeah.

I know all kinds of people running scams and it sickens me.

I have heard of so many new players that were buying sub level 10 spells for 10 silver and that is a rip-off and taking advantage of new players.

[Burns]

As an outfitter on the mistmoore server I have seen prices get way out of hand.

Eolith Vials, and Stroma wash's have been going for 1.25 silver each so I can vouch for outrageous prices.

Luckily I have money coming in fairly regularly but people are overcharging yeah.

I know all kinds of people running scams and it sickens me.

I have heard of so many new players that were buying sub level 10 spells for 10 silver and that is a rip-off and taking advantage of new players.

So then make a scholar and offer your goods at lower prices. Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave right now.

[PhantomCleric]

I don't understand why more people don't look at this the same way you look at grouping in adventuring. When I'm in a group I don't tell the warrior "Ok I've healed you twice now and you only tanked one mob, so you will need to tank one more mob before I heal you again." You just do what's needed, the same holds true in crafting. I have a few contacts that I go with for various ingredients, we don't set up any barter system we just fill orders for each other. I don't have a running tab everytime the scholar needs a stack of iron spikes, he just gets a stack. When I'm running low on Tempers I just let him know ahead of time and he's there with a stack for me. These arn't guys in my guild or long time friends they are just crafting contacts I've made who understand the value of working together.

I think the problem is with people who don't think what they are making for the contact is "worth" what they are getting in return. It doesn't matter, if you can call on that person anytime to fill any shortage you have that is worth much more than a few silver here and there. Soloing through the crafting profession will be very annoying indeed.

[Punker]

So then make a scholar and offer your goods at lower prices. Adam Smith is rolling over in his grave right now.

Getting a level 10 in any artisan class really isn't that hard, it can be done on Noob island easy enough - I got Punker to level 9 + 213% in 5 hours on noob island, plus got all his gathering/foresting/mining skills over 40 (although no trapping on noob island bites the BIG one)

Of course, if you're other chars are already off the island, it could be problematic, although if you already have one artisan char 10+ you do have the ability to raise funds pretty easilly for the chosen character in the new skill.

I'll be making my level 17 brawler a scholar I think, just so I can keep up with the scrolls he'll need in the future.

(and yes, in the meantime, get a scholar to buy the level 10 book and do it yourself - just don't complain when they do remove the ability to create your own ingredients)

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Not to shoot myself in the foot here but don't those finished washes and tempers sell to NPC vendors for a silver a piece?

My Iron ingots sell for one silver each to NPC's and all that takes is an eolith temper. I have several alchemy types in guild that I drop 30-40 Turquoise and electrum on after doing a resource run. They make me tempers I make them iron spikes or Burlap Thread or armor or weapons or whatever.

We charge each other nothing and since we all do resource gathering and trade around what we all need all we ever really spend CASH on is our fuels.

Get in a guild or make a PC craft association. It goes REALLY FAR in advancing you.

But it is hardly unreasonable for an alchemist to sell him product to PC's for 1.25 silver if the NPC's will pay him a silver each.

[Aguirre]

I love interdependency, but there should also be some 'soloing' :p They have that for adventuring, but there is not 1 craftsman recipe that does not require stroma something or other. (excep 'baking').

I think it might be better to have all intermediate components not require other classes.

I am all for final products requiring other classes :)

The thing is, as a craftsmen I cannot sell any tier 2 things with out help from a scholar. But a scholar can easily make 3sp profit from anything stroma.

1 - water - 6cp
1 - fuel - 6cp
1 - tuber/maple - 50cp (high price)

easily results in 4 stromas if they use buffs correctly - priced at 50cp-1sp each

2-4sp gross minus 60cp cost = 1.4-3.4sp profit per 1 combine :) And it stacks, and it does not involve any other classes :) And they have many valuable final combines :)

That said, this is really not meant to be a rant. I get to make cool stuff that has in-game graphics. Or bank boxes with loads of slots. It also sounds like the society's can help with this problem, I look forward to when they get fixed!

[Korsis]

Just remember, you seem to be one of these people that is slotting in harvested materials as "free." They aren't free. They are worth whatever the market dictates they are worth. Even if you harvest them yourself you could still sell them, so they have value. When the raw materials to produce wash/resin/oil/temper (and temper is probably the cheapest) go from about 60c-1s, and then add 12c for candle/liquid, and then add time and trouble, 60-80c per is entirely reasonable. Now that you can make your own, why don't you "cash in" if you think this is too high? And if you can't be bothered, why not ask yourself why anyone else would bother selling as cheap as you seem to think they should?

You're leaving out one very important detail. If you are actually a scholar, then you can be reasonable sure that these combines will be pristine, and will yield 4 results. So even assuming your highball cost estimate of 112c, and the "low" price of 60c, you're actually selling the product of the combine for 240c, more than a 100% markup from ingredient cost. If the ingredient cost is a more reasonable 80c, then it's a 200% markup. Is that "fair"? Is that what your time is worth? Well if people are buying it, then it is a fair price imo. No reason to hurt yourself out of a bizarre sense of duty to sell things arbitrarily low. I say, sell it as high as it sells. That's what a market economy is all about. But all the same, understand that you're making a pretty tidy margin of profit selling tempers at 60c. Selling them "at cost" would be in the 20-30c each range.

Edit: the poster right above me said basically the same thing . . must have missed it or posted at the same time. Either way, sorry to be redundant. :)

[Torval the Harvester]

You're leaving out one very important detail. If you are actually a scholar, then you can be reasonable sure that these combines will be pristine, and will yield 4 results. So even assuming your highball cost estimate of 112c, and the "low" price of 60c, you're actually selling the product of the combine for 240c, more than a 100% markup from ingredient cost. If the ingredient cost is a more reasonable 80c, then it's a 200% markup. Is that "fair"? Is that what your time is worth? Well if people are buying it, then it is a fair price imo. No reason to hurt yourself out of a bizarre sense of duty to sell things arbitrarily low. I say, sell it as high as it sells. That's what a market economy is all about. But all the same, understand that you're making a pretty tidy margin of profit selling tempers at 60c. Selling them "at cost" would be in the 20-30c each range.

Edit: the poster right above me said basically the same thing . . must have missed it or posted at the same time. Either way, sorry to be redundant. :)


Yes, I think that's entirely reasonable. Have you actually seen what people are paying for finished products? The end customer doesn't seem to mind covering that profit margain, so why should you? I've done the math on everything I'm selling (and selling easily) and even at one silver budgeted for each wash and temper people are happy to pay close to a 100% mark-up. And I'm budgeting 60 copper for each raw ingredient, btw.

Sorry, but check your numbers. You think you are the only one who deserves to make a profit? Maybe you just haven't produced any finished products for the market. Manage that and check back with me. I think you'll be satisfied. don't know if that will hold up long term, but we'll have to see. For now it's working fine for me.

I'll repeat again, 100% profit is entirely reasonable for an alchemist. At that price, frankly, I can't be bothered. People have been buying my oils and washes for 80 copper per and I've taken them off the market because they are too much trouble to produce and I'd rather make finished items. Hope that gives you some idea of all the "cashing in" that's going on.

[Vikken]

I'm not going to get into the muck of all this, but scholars do require goods from Outfitters. Thats simple fact means that over time, scholars will see the value in keeping their interm products at a reasonable cost. Scholar A gouges the market on tempers, Scholar A pays the price in higher costs for spikes and whatever. The market will stiblize itself after a bit, you just have to give this time.

I also suspect that current finished goods for adventuring, like weapons and armor, will see a general drop in profit margins after people start to realize that questing is so much cheaper. Crafters will then have to compete with quest items, or fill in the holes where there are few quests. Frankly, I haven't seen any really gotta have items from otufitters yet, even the rares, for the cost and time involved. The Outfitters market is for the lazy, wasteful, or ignorant adventurer. Only time will tell how much of a market that is.

[Ixnay]

I strongly disagree with this system. Please just hear me out before you call me a whiner.

I'm in Freeport, and I wanted to become an Armorer. I am a level 12 outfitter and a level 16 crusader. Just the other day I finally got all my gear slots filled, I have very poor gear - I love the game but I just don't have the time I used to have to play.

So I don't know anyone on the server really, and I have just one character. My strat was to get my gathering etc. skills over 40 and then farm the heck out of Commonlands, and use some of what I farmed to advance my trade skills, and sell the rest so I could buy other stuff needed to advance my character and tradeskills.

So I did that. The problem is many others apparently had the same idea, and there seems to be a glut of raw materials on the market - tubers are selling for 20 copper each or less. Farming competition in the Commons is intense, let me tell you.

In about 6 to 8 hours of hard farming with some soloing mixed in, I can get about 4 stacks each of Maple and Iron, and about 2 stacks each of Electrum and Turquoise. These items do eventually sell at around 20 copper each. That's 4 silver a stack, or about 48 silver for the days work.

Ok, so I excitedly go into my new workshop to get a quest. I get a quest to make 10 Shaped Forged Iron Long Swords. I'm thinking no problem, I have the iron and literally everything else that can possibly be harvested in any tier 1 or 2 zone. I'm used to paying 6 copper for coal and such, and maybe a little more for other parts, but I like to obtain my own materials. It just feels better that way doesn't it?

And then I drill down through the recipe and notice the requirement for an Eolith Temper. I look through everything possible, and finally come here, which maybe I should have done first :)

Well, right now I'm looking at the broker window in my workshop. The least expensive Eolith Temper is 3 silver 50 copper. Pristine ones start at 9 silver.

So basically, I can earn 4 silver farming a whole stack of raw materials, but that will only buy me one temper? That means I can afford to smith up to 12 whole items each full day of play? How long will it take me just to get from level 12 to 13 as an outfitter at that cost?

Who thinks this is a good way to run the game? Because real life economies don't work like that.

EQ2 seems a lot more role play oriented than EQ1, is one reason I like it. So please don't tell me to make and level a bot just to get Eolith Tempers - that's too much trouble, I'm not going to do it. Also, they made great effort to make the game as realistic and detailed as possible for tradeskills - it really does feel like I'm in a workshop - so you tell me how it fits in with this for me to clone a limited use Minime and shortcut the system that was intended. It doesn't fit in at all, and in fact that seems like cheating (even though I know it isn't, people have the right to make four characters and do whatever with them if they please), but you can't tell me that the game designers planned on people short cutting the system like this. I don't want to be playing EQ2 in its little mythical world and just breakaway to a bot character everytime I need parts that are not available or feasible to obtain in the economy on my server.

And I don't have the time to develop extensive contacts for tradeouts of items or whatever. So if this is how it's going to be, am I best off just stopping now and looking for another use of my discretionary time?

My character in EQ1 has the title Expert Artisan, so I know what it means to spend five years maxing tradeskills. Tradeskills in EQ2 are way more fun than in EQ1, and I don't want them to be easy. But advancing under this system seems more than hard, it seems impossible. It is definitely impossible if I have to rely upon gougers for simple components and I'm not willing to shortcut the whole purpose of the game by making a second character.

[duotron]

Personally I joined a guild with a solid Tradeskill base, we cross exchange sub-combines for free. I get 20 Tempers for every 10 iron spikes a scholar needs and I give away 6 slot bags by the dozen, but I get stacks of pelts without ever leaving WW.

-Duo

[Burns]

Supply and demand. Supply and demand. Say it with me. Supply and demand.



















If you think they are overpriced, make a scholar and sell them for cheaper and make a million!

[Korin]

I've already made a craftsman for my needs, I will make a scholar soon too. I saw the rediculous prices on the consigners, and I think currently its only showing some of the products for sale. When they fix it then I will use it.

[Burns]

Did you scroll though the pages of merchandise on the broker?

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

That's 4 silver a stack, or about 48 silver for the days workThat is mistake #1. If your selling 20 tier two gathered resources for only 4 silver your cutting your protential earning down to only 25 % of what they can be.

Do your WHOLESALER TASKS! They pay 12 silver for 15 of any applicable resource. Gather as much tier two resources as you can. Go to your wholesaler. Get a task. Have a friend trade you the appropriate resource from your inventory in single units. That is 6 single resources a trade. This will count off your quest credit bar. Once you reach 15, with those resources STILL ON YOU (very important) simply double click the same npc. Those 15 resources will be deleted from you inventory, you will get 12 silver and get credit with your wholesaler with tradeskill status.

No this is not a bug since the required resources are deleted from your inventory permanently when the task is done.

[Ixnay]

Did you scroll though the pages of merchandise on the broker?

Yeah, there is no doubt I know that when it says Page 1 of 3, I click on "Last" to get to the last page and thus see the lowest prices. That is the range I quoted you - from a low of almost 4 silver to a high exceeding 9 silver.

Per temper.

Do your WHOLESALER TASKS! They pay 12 silver for 15 of any applicable resource.

Do the math with me here. If I did what you suggest, and say did THREE WHOLESALER TASKS within the 6 to 8 hour hardcore play period I described, running back and forth from Commonlands to my district, we are still only talking about a haul of 45 silver for the day. Except for having some miscellaneous stuff left to sell for a pittance, I am in the exact same postition as the one I described above.

And people, please stop with the suggestions about multiple characters and accounts. Neither the chemistry nor alchemy skills in this game enable cloning. I checked.

[Ixnay]

Have a friend trade you the appropriate resource from your inventory in single units. That is 6 single resources a trade. This will count off your quest credit bar.

I have never claimed to be a smart man, sir, but if what you're saying is true, trust me, this is an exploit and was not intended - I'm not going to do it, and you shouldn't either.

[Burns]

It is not an exploit. You still need to gather the items that are requested, and you still have to turn them in to the wholesaler, you are just manually forcing the quest engine to recognize items that you collected prior to the receipt of the quest.

It is not an exploit. It is a way to deal with coding that should have allowed you to turn in what you were asked to collect if you already had it.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

It has already been covered. It is not an exploit. You still need to harvest the items. They still need to be on your person and those items still get used up in that task. There is nothing corrupt or shady or abusive about doing this.

Your just pregathering components. What is wrong with filling an order from exising stock? Absolutely nothing, in or out of game.

Now if you could click off the quest counter and complete the quest with ONE of the appropriate item THAT would be an exploit. But you cannot. You HAVE to have he resource they want in the full quanity ON YOUR PERSON to complete the quest and that resource is used up and removed from your inventory when it happens.

Your not cheating the system in any way. Your simply planning ahead and gathering all the resources you can before your given the quest.

I can see 0 wrong with that morally or from a game play stand point.

[Korin]

Did you scroll though the pages of merchandise on the broker?

Yup, but some people are claiming their products don't show up on the board. I believe it only shows up to a limited amount of items being sold.

[Korin]

I have never claimed to be a smart man, sir, but if what you're saying is true, trust me, this is an exploit and was not intended - I'm not going to do it, and you shouldn't either.

It is not an exploit, You still need the required amount of items in your inventory to satisfy the quest. Those items get removed from your inventory. Trading 1 at a time just satisfy the collection part of the quest. This is not an exploit. Someone had to gather this items at some point.

[PhantomCleric]

And I don't have the time to develop extensive contacts for tradeouts of items or whatever. So if this is how it's going to be, am I best off just stopping now and looking for another use of my discretionary time?

So you have time to run around in commons and harvest for hours but you can't talk to people in the crafting channel while you are doing it? I just don't understand people who think like that. Sure you have time to go run around and craft buy yourself but you don't have time to talk and develop friends and contacts. This isn't a single player game, you can't kill the group mobs by yourself, and you can't make longswords by yourself its not like this is complicated its just social.

There is more than one way to get something you need, one way is to buy it from the broker, one way is to buy it direct from the player, another way (which I prefer) is to find yourself a scholar and craftsmen who is in a similar boat as you and trade for services. This may come as a surpise but a lot of scholars use swords too, they can't make them. You need Eolith temper and pommels to make one. Seems like there's the beginings of a good trade there. The same holds true to armor and backpacks. Problem is far too many outfitters think they deserve silver for these things but arn't willing to pay for the components.

The only thing I think would have made the system easier to work with is if the find group tool worked on the artisian classes too. But as someone told me when I came here first the crafting channel is a great place to make contacts and work out trades. Everyone needs something, even the people who are making other characters to do stuff, you can't cover all the bases so you are going to have to talk to someone sooner or later.

[Moonshade]

And people, please stop with the suggestions about multiple characters and accounts. Neither the chemistry nor alchemy skills in this game enable cloning. I checked.

True, there is no cloning, but there is a shared bank slot. I have a scholarly alt that provides the various stromas I need for my main quite nicely. And as far as we know, handing the wholesaler task items over to someone is not an exploit, as the items get used up when you turn in the quest. The wholesaler doesn't care where you get them from, they just want them.

[Velislyth]

Anyway, if you already can't stand the fact that you are dealing with an open and somewhat unstable market when buying from other players....well, maybe this isn't the path for you.

The devs themselves said that the EQ2 market isn't exclusively player-controlled - they can and will manipulate things if they decide the economy needs tweaking. You may claim to have (Or actually have) some special magical insight into how the devs think or plan. But as far as I can see, you're just making broad, ultra-defensive assumptions.

And by the way. Why does it seem like so many artisans go on and on about how it's a free market, but the moment someone laughs at them and points out they're being ripoff artists, they freak out? Trying to choke every last possible copper out of the market is viewed (rightly, to a degree) as 'how the market works' but merely calling people on it is sinful? If you expect no one to ever complain about your prices, fair or no, you're the one in the wrong field.

Anyway, just a passing comment from me - please, scheme away at how to "get me" and others at level 20. I'm not going to respond in kind, because I want people to always remember my character as 'the guy who has pristine wares and good prices', not anything else.

[Ngreth Thergn]

to me that jsut means sell:
Teir one at 20c (=3c at 15)
Teir two at 80c (=12c at 15)

this way you are breaking even on the turnin vs selling to players :)

[Korin]

Luckily the society return rate is higher than that. So it works out.

[Ixnay]

Well, the people who run this site seem pretty conservative, so if they don't see a problem with doing the gathering quests by gathering or buying raw materials in advance and getting quest credit inside the wholesale workshop rather than while physically gathering, far be it from me to suggest that is wrong, and I stand corrected.

Just seems like a sketchy way to make easy money fast - I guess you can also get quest credit just buying raw materials from the wholesaler downstairs? That seems like the fastest and most profitable way.

Let's see, I can get a quest, easily buy 15 each of the requested Tier 2 raw materials (on my server at least) for 30 copper each or less, and then immediately resell those materials to the quest giver for 12 silver. Thats a profit of 12 silver minus 4.5 silver = 7.5 silver every few minutes, for as long as there are raw materials on the vendor.

Thanks for helping me finally understand how I can make all the coin I want quickly without having to actually work for it. Come to think about it, the person in my wholesale society who has already racked up over 6000 status points wasn't working night and day gathering after all, she was just smart. :)

[Dafydd]

Let's see, I can get a quest, easily buy 15 each of the requested Tier 2 raw materials (on my server at least) for 30 copper each or less, and then immediately resell those materials to the quest giver for 12 silver. Thats a profit of 12 silver minus 4.5 silver = 7.5 silver every few minutes, for as long as there are raw materials on the vendor.

Thanks for helping me finally understand how I can make all the coin I want quickly without having to actually work for it. Come to think about it, the person in my wholesale society who has already racked up over 6000 status points wasn't working night and day gathering after all, she was just smart. :)

LOL dude YOU CAN NOT buy raw resources from vendors.

Please don't take this wrong but from reading your post etc... I don't feel you have a very good understanding of what you need to understand to make it in EQII as a trade skiller.

And just an FYI for you about the high priced Items.. You gotta time the market. Learn the patterns on your server. on my server Stromas sell from 8s to 1s. Depending on what time od day you check the vendors you can not get them for less than 4s but at about the time all the trade skillers are going to bed most put there days surplus up for sell for ~ 1s to 2s.

Also from everything you have said I gather that your primary complaint is that you wish to solo your entire way through the game. You said that Adventures can solo through the game and that you feel tradeskillers should be able to solo through the game as well. Well let me hep you understand a few basic concepts. Adv's can solo but they progress a lot slower than someone in a guild or someone that groups a lot. Trade skillers can solo through the game but again its easier if they work with other players. THIS WILL ALWAYS REMAIN A FACT SOLO=Harder Group=Easier. You want the game easier for you as a solo player. But remember if they make it easier to solo then it also gets easier for groups. Grouping and co-operation with fellow players WILL ALWAYS BE EASIER than SOLO no matter how hard or how easy the game is. Its a FACT!!


P.S. Playing smart is always better than working hard. As any engineer will tell you working smart and efficiently is always better than working hard.

Oh and on a last note I noticed your only a level 16 crusader. being only level 16 you can not safely travel to the best harvesting areas. Get to level 18 or 19 and your harvesting opertunities will tripple.

[Ixnay]

LOL dude YOU CAN NOT buy raw resources from vendors.

LOL dude . . . I don't have an understanding - reread what I wrote - I specifically talked about buying from the broker downstairs - you know the one right? It isn't a vendor - it's a broker - that allows you to buy anything for sale on the player characters in your market - INCLUDING raw materials?

I fully realize harvested items are tagged as NO-VALUE, meaning you can't sell them to vendors.

Thanks :)

[Ixnay]

To make sure this wonderful new opportunity to MAKE MONEY FAST IN EQ works as expected, I just went and got a quest from the front desk npc in my wholesaler to gather 15 Iron Clusters. Because this isn't an exploit, I just went down to the BROKER and purchased them for 24 copper each = 3 silver 60 copper for the lot. As I bought them from the broker, I got the gather quest ding on each purchase, and after purchasing 15, was told I had completed the quest and should report back to the questgiver for my reward, which in this case would be 8 silver 40 copper for approximately 60 seconds work.

So after making a second character on another EQ account, I can just leave him in trader mode, load him with new materials, buy those from the broker inside the wholesale society, and turn that gathering into platinum!

BTW - seriously - if you don't think this is an exploit, I guess I'm just at a loss for words :) I deleted the quest rather than collect the 12 silver, because I wouldn't want to lose my account.

Thanks for the great exchanges of thought.

[Omellette]

To make sure this wonderful new opportunity to MAKE MONEY FAST IN EQ works as expected, I just went and got a quest from the front desk npc in my wholesaler to gather 15 Iron Clusters. Because this isn't an exploit, I just went down to the BROKER and purchased them for 24 copper each = 3 silver 60 copper for the lot. As I bought them from the broker, I got the gather quest ding on each purchase, and after purchasing 15, was told I had completed the quest and should report back to the questgiver for my reward, which in this case would be 8 silver 40 copper for approximately 60 seconds work.

So after making a second character on another EQ account, I can just leave him in trader mode, load him with new materials, buy those from the broker inside the wholesale society, and turn that gathering into platinum!

BTW - seriously - if you don't think this is an exploit, I guess I'm just at a loss for words :) I deleted the quest rather than collect the 12 silver, because I wouldn't want to lose my account.

Thanks for the great exchanges of thought.

Wow, this actually worked? Holy schnickies -- that's gotta get pulled and fast...

[Vikken]

I think that some people may have have missed the fact that, if a scholar is selling his tempers for 4s, then he will buy his iron spikes for < 8s. Sell your products by the contraints of the system. If scholars on your server want to jack up prices on their goods, by all means they can, then they can buy back products made from their jack up prices (with a healthy margin included). There is an upper limit on how much adventurers are willing to pay for finished products. Scholars will eventually see the benefit of keeping the prices low on thier interm products.

Let the market work people. I know its frustrating. I myself don't like the idea of having to depend on other crafters to make refine/interm products, but those are the rules fo the game. Complaining about it here, when its such an ingrained principle of the crafting system in EQ2 isn't going to change anything. However, the system is not broken. You do have to give it time to work though. I suggest putting a few interm products up for sale based on the cost of manufacture and letting them sit there on the market. Either they will sell, or they won't. they products are needed, so if they don't sell, then final products based on these goods will not be sold.

Also, give the devs some credit. They don't get their job from being stupid. Thye know there is a shared bank slot. They know that people can bypass the system by making alts.

LOL dude YOU CAN NOT buy raw resources from vendors.

I wonder whos laughing at who when people read this. You do know that you can buy resources from the broker and resell to the wholeseller. How else do you think people grind up those 6k+ points so quickly? Its very handy for grinding up the level of your wholeseller society.

Resources have a cost of 80c because this is the price you will get from the wholeseller. Not everyone knows this, but don't expect that to last much longer. So take your 80c into account when pricing your goods, along with any jacked up prices on any interm products your purchased to make them, and sell your wares.

Oh, and remember to have fun. This is a game remember. :P

[Burns]

LOL dude YOU CAN NOT buy raw resources from vendors.


Heh. Seriously. If you don't understand what someone is saying, read it again before you attack them. It only makes it sting worse when you take an all-out attack with your pants down.

[Dafydd]

LOL dude . . . I don't have an understanding - reread what I wrote - I specifically talked about buying from the broker downstairs - you know the one right? It isn't a vendor - it's a broker - that allows you to buy anything for sale on the player characters in your market - INCLUDING raw materials?

I fully realize harvested items are tagged as NO-VALUE, meaning you can't sell them to vendors.

Thanks :)

Dude your server must really be hosed up then if players are selling raw resources at prices significantly lower then what the Societies pay for them. And the interum products are as you say selling for 4 to 9s ???

[Euthan]

It is a way to make money, getting raw materials from a player merchant and using them in your wholeseller's quest. I don't see any problem with this at all, I've been doing it occasionally. It isn't easy however to get everything you need ALL the time. I had to get Tubers once and they were only being sold on the Market for like a silver each. What's preventing the person selling these things from just doing the Wholeseller's quest themselves? I'll tell you why: there would be no raw materials on the market at all, and that would be bad. In an RP aspect, this sounds exactly like the atmosphere of Freeport...buy low sell high.

You can't prevent people from selling raw goods on the market. I have no desire to walk around outside and mine or cut trees down, so I get all my raw materials from the Broker.

If you want to make even more cash, avoid the Broker all together. See where the person is selling from and go visit them personally. The Broker charges 20% commission.

[Burns]

Dude your server must really be hosed up then if players are selling raw resources at prices significantly lower then what the Societies pay for them.

Dude, I bet you your server is hosed too dude.

Personally I thought I could not due wholesale quests anymore and sold about 10 stacks of tier 2 forages last night for 20-40cp each. You assume that all players are like the borg and just absorb all of the available information from all sources immediately.

[Ixnay]

You know what this situation reminds me of?

Within the first hour of the day that "Tribute" was introduced in EQ1, I immediately realized that I could make a level 1 gnome, make Animated Bait, and turn that "tradeskilled" product in to the Tribute Master for huge tribute points.

On that day, in less than 2 hours, and for under 100 plat, I earned 5 million tribute, easily a lifetime supply with everything possible turned on.

Because I didn't actually do this for personal benefit, but to prove a point and get immediate corrective action, I posted that "tip" to Safehouse.

My post lasted about a half hour, and was taken down and my access was banned by that site for having posted an "exploit".

About an hour after that, a systemwide emergency patch was announced in EQ, and on every server GMs were running around madly killing the tribute NPCs on all servers.

I love this game, as I do EQ 1. I probably don't need to point out the different games that have been ruined by easy large scale cheating - basically, getting something for nothing, or for less than value.

Look around your servers and check out your wholesale societies. See all the people with 5000 points and more? Does anyone really believe they've been gathering that many supplies? It sure would be easy for the GMs to check the logs on those accounts. I wonder how much EQ wealth they've already amassed, and how many are already feeding the IGE/Yantis plat sales empires.

And I ask, do you want that? Or are you like me, and would rather not see this game ruined by people being allowed to make such huge profits this quickly with little or no effort?

In the situation we have now, you can get quest credit for buying items from a broker and reselling those items to the quest giver in the very same tradeskill zone at extraordinary profits. You can complete each quest in less than a minute, and at least on my server, double your money or better. This situation cannot have been intended by the devs for this brand new game.

[Burns]

In my opinion the two situations could not be more different.

In the situation with the animated bait, you were spending about 2 silver pieces to buy unlimited resources from a vendor and make the equivalent of about 10,000pp worth of tribute.

In the case in EQ2 with wholesale quests, the resources are introduced into the world at a limited rate via resource nodes with a specific quest that was designed to give the holder of 15 of them a reward of 12 silver. (or whatever the exact ratio is. It doesn't matter for this argument.) So the resources are worth the exact same to everyone, but some people don't realize the value of their goods, as I did not last night. Therefore the status is concentrated on one person who is working to do the quests, but it is not created out of thin air as the bait tribute item was.

All this means is that you have to pay more than the wholesaler if you want to buy tradeskill resources from each other.

[rothguard]

I have done the wholesale quest about 10 times. I havent bought from the broker but dont really see the problem. People are gathering the resources, other people are turning them in for the silver and status.
If someone wants to sell below value of a product and someone else takes advantage of that ignorance, I dont see a problem.

And, since the quest giver says to harvest 15 of whatever, if you dont you are using a bug. Buy from broker, trade from friend, mob drop, whatever. It shouldn't count.

I do like the wholesale quests alot. It is a very valuable market tool. It gives a baseline to raw materials. Tubers should be worth approximately 60 - 80 copper if you buy from broker to turn it in for quest. Therefore, secondary products should be worth vender materials + raw + mark up. So for say pristine stroma wash as an example,80c + 24c = 104c times a mark up and devided by 4. So 30 for cheap stroma wash and 50 for expensive.
Granted the market is new and in a state of flux but after people get used to it and there is more competition.
This quest seems like a built in device to help the market with base prices.

[Ixnay]

I dont see a problem.

What other quest in this game allows you to do the work, kill the mobs, or find the stuff FIRST and then get the quest after?

None.

No way this is working as intended, but they obviously don't consider it a problem so enjoy the spoils while they last :)

[Zendaken]

Ixnay, while you make some very good points, if you read some of the other posts, you'll find that there is talk about the "worth" of harvestables. Just like the cost of the tempers and washes will be determined once the societies start selling them, the NPC merchants will drive the player costs.

So, just like in RL you can make money from buying low at one store and reselling, so do you make money on these quests. It's probably pushing the envelope of us "conservatives" ( :D ), but money is entering the system no faster than was designed (or hopefully designed :D ). If you think about it, that money is only being split between two characters - the harvester/adventurer, and the crafter/reseller.

And to provide one counter example to your quest list, there are the collection quests. Take the shell or feather collection on IoR. I actually collected multiples of the all the shells (*blush*) before I figured out how to trigger the quest. So I found all the stuff, THEN did the quest.

When I original thought of this, I only thought of the system recognizing the resources you already harvested, but this does actually cover the buying of resources as well. I'm sure people will soon figure out that raws sell for a bit more than they're selling and increase prices.

[Burns]

What other quest in this game allows you to do the work, kill the mobs, or find the stuff FIRST and then get the quest after?

None.


You are absolutely correct. Except for the 100+ collection quests and the numerous monster lore quests, there is not a single quest in the game that allows you to collect components first.

[Ixnay]

Ok, if I'm the only one who got this reaction, then I'm probably wrong.

I guess no harm making some fast coin then.

Sorry for the interruption.

[Dafydd]

Ok, if I'm the only one who got this reaction, then I'm probably wrong.

I guess no harm making some fast coin then.

Sorry for the interruption.

First I would like to apologize for the misunderstanding yesterday. :(


Next I think that allowing us to buy the items and imediatly turn them in for trade skill quests does several things by design. Primarily it sort of allows a way for sony to control pricing.

It allows adventures to harvest while hunting and them dump their items fast for a few coins by under selling the Wholesaler value. This puts a few coins in their pockets and it puts a few coins in our (tradskillers) pockets and helps the society we work for up our status thus opening up more items and it all circles back to better equipment for the adventurers..

[Vikken]

You are absolutely correct. Except for the 100+ collection quests and the numerous monster lore quests, there is not a single quest in the game that allows you to collect components first.


So, so, true...

[Otun]

I believe if you think of the wholesaler quest with /rp on, it makes perfect sense how it works. The wholesaler needs goods and is not following you into the havesting area, or training you to harvest. How would they know if you just walked around the corner and picked up some cheap goods from another guy and turned in the items. The items are also not being created out of nothing... someone at sometime actually harvested them. Its supply is finite and without serverwide cooperation of players, this quest could never generate thousands of plat for a single player... I dont think even 1 plat.

[Ngreth Thergn]

To make sure this wonderful new opportunity to MAKE MONEY FAST IN EQ works as expected, I just went and got a quest from the front desk npc in my wholesaler to gather 15 Iron Clusters. Because this isn't an exploit, I just went down to the BROKER and purchased them for 24 copper each = 3 silver 60 copper for the lot. As I bought them from the broker, I got the gather quest ding on each purchase, and after purchasing 15, was told I had completed the quest and should report back to the questgiver for my reward, which in this case would be 8 silver 40 copper for approximately 60 seconds work.

Yes. You can make money this way. Assuming the players are selling iron for less than 80c (the break even point).

BUT this is a limited resource. There are ONLY so many of any resource that players are selling. The brokers inventory come from other players. (yes you seem to know this, just being clear)

There is no 'Infinite" loop here to infinitely make cash. Once you have bought all the iron (or whatever teir 2 it is asking for) at less than 80c (well 66c since the broker adds 20%) there is no more until another player adds some. It is NOT an infinite stockpile to work from. You cannot infinitely loop this for cash. And hey, if they are happy with their cash, and you are making more cash because of their prices there is nothing wrong, especially since this is a limited resource.

Is it any more wrong than selling spider silk for 1p then someone buying it up and selling it for 2p and making a plat off you because it is worth more? Just because people should maybe be selling their iron for 66-67c and some people are doing it for less, does not mean that buying at the price they feel it is worth and making money off of it is exploiting the system.

The broker is NOT giving an infinite supply of the item. It WILL run out. You are making money off of a PLAYER maybe not charging enough, not the system being broken.

So after making a second character on another EQ account, I can just leave him in trader mode, load him with new materials, buy those from the broker inside the wholesale society, and turn that gathering into platinum!

BTW - seriously - if you don't think this is an exploit, I guess I'm just at a loss for words :) I deleted the quest rather than collect the 12 silver, because I wouldn't want to lose my account.

Thanks for the great exchanges of thought. Again. Someone (you?) had to gather those resources. There is NOT an infinite source of them again. So again, there is not an "exploit for cash" happening. If your other character harvested those 15 iron, and you buy the 15 iron. poof, the iron is gone. Just because the OTHER character made the effort of doing the harvesting, does not make this exploiting a bug.
Think of it as a grocer asking for apples. Does the grocer CARE that you went and picked the apples yourself (for BETTER profit on your side) or that you paid a worker half of what he would per apple to get the apples? No. The Grocer just wants the apples. This is the same way. The grocer wants the apple.

I think it is MORE of a bug that you can't just get a stack of 15 counted immediately as your 15 and you need to do it one at a time to count, that the fact that you can trade for what you need.

Of course SOE could tell me that it *IS* a bug that you can trade for it. But they have not said so.

You are of course WELCOME to be paranoid about it, because SOE has been a bit arbitrary in the past, but I tend to still think the best of them :) And I truly see it as my Grocer analogy. Since there is not an INFINITE supply... it is not a bug that you can just use other players to make a profit (because going through the broker that is what you are doing, using other players to make a profit)

If they were asking for something you can get from an NPC merchant (not the broker), which is infinite... THEN we have a problem :)

[Ixnay]

Thanks again for the info. Made a few hundred silver today running up and down the stairs between the quest giver and the broker :)

Ngreth, I think your argument about finite quantities is the correct one in this case. The point at which I was no longer willing to run up and down the stairs anymore was when I depleted all raw materials I could obtain from the broker at and below the 60 copper per item price (50 sales price, 10 copper broker commission). Sure, there were a few more copper to be had, but I was tired by then and I felt like it was no longer worth the effort.

This is a very interesting form of farming indeed. :)

Anyway, I'm going to concentrate on leveling for a bit now.

Thanks again

[Nilty]

Whats nice is right now if you have ablity to trade raw goods you can harvets everything you want and do a tier2 wholeseller quest for a 12 SP pay off.. wich rounds off to 80 Copper each + status in society. and Tier 3 junk reward is 48 silver wich is 3s 20c each

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

BTW - seriously - if you don't think this is an exploit, I guess I'm just at a loss for words For a man at a loss or words you sure say a alot. :)

Seriously the massive difference between this and regular quests is it is part of an ECONOMY system. It is working EXACTLY like an economy in RL. If I get an order from a wholesaler for 15 raw goods he is not going to want me to go out and get them all. He far prefers that I have the stuff in stock. That is why in the real world we have warehousing. To store product BEFORE the demand.

If you spend cash on the broker for the componentst then turn them in, that is epending a resource to get a resource. good for you, you have used your economic power to get what you need and made a profit. That is the whole POINT of an economy.

If you have the items on hand in inventory or the bank (and BTW these quest can and WILL pull the appropriate resources OUT OF YOUR BANK) you had to GET them. That means you foraged them or you bought them on the open market. However you aquire them you have and that means some time and effort has been spent doing so.

There is nothing wrong with working smart or working hard or combing the two to be efficient. If I take 2 hours before getting the quest gathering or after the quest gathering that is still two hours. If I buy the items before the quest or after the quest that is still money spent and that money had to come from somewhere. It also means SOMEONE had to SPEND THE TIME to forage the resources somewhere.

This is not an explouit. This is economics.

And btw there ARE quests out that that requier resources that do NOT let you do this. In fact the Dwarven Workboots quest starts by requiring 100 iron ore and 100 Maple and you MUST gather them all AFTER receiving the quest and you cannot use the trade method for existing stock to tick down the counters.

Since there is a definative delineation in game I think that trading for whoelsale tasks is intended & not a bug.

[Zendaken]

Umm, Gil? If you read the rest of the thread, you'll note that Ixnay had a chance of heart already. =)

Good post though, and a good summary. :D

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Your correct and I apologies to Ixnay. I had read the whole first page and had not realsie it went to a second and I missed out the last few posts. For that and my somewhat edged reply I apologise.

And now that I know I will not be losing my trade memberships every single time I zone I will actualy start DOING these again. I got 3.75 gold waiting to buy everything I can tonight...

[Euthan]

Two comments:

1) You know you don't have to buy from The Broker, right? The broker charges an extra 20% over what the player is charging. If you want to spare the time, just see where the person is selling from and go there (usually an Inn in one of the racial districts)

2) Has anyone noticed a bug where the Wholeseller isn't taking the goods you collected, or taking partial stacks? I had a quest to gather 15 iron clusters, and I found a player selling...I bought the 15, but then for the heck of it, bought another fifteen for my own purposes...this left a stack of 20 and a stack of 10. When I went to the Wholeseller, I'm pretty sure they didn't take either stack away. Similar thing happened with a maple retrieval quest, wound up with a stack of 20 and a stack of 3, Wholeseller took the 3 stack, left the 20. Maybe the goods were taken out of my bank to make up for it, but I'm not sure what happened.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Euthan the system will also pull the needed material out of your bank if you have it there as well. Sometimes in combination with what you have on you.

I have had 15 turquoise take for a consigment and had 8 pulled out of my inventory and 7 out of my bank for example.

Exacly HOW it determines what it takes I don't know though since I had 55 turquoise ON me at the time.

[eepjr24]

2) Has anyone noticed a bug where the Wholeseller isn't taking the goods you collected, or taking partial stacks? I had a quest to gather 15 iron clusters, and I found a player selling...I bought the 15, but then for the heck of it, bought another fifteen for my own purposes...this left a stack of 20 and a stack of 10. When I went to the Wholeseller, I'm pretty sure they didn't take either stack away. Similar thing happened with a maple retrieval quest, wound up with a stack of 20 and a stack of 3, Wholeseller took the 3 stack, left the 20. Maybe the goods were taken out of my bank to make up for it, but I'm not sure what happened.

Check your bank, the wholesaler has a nasty habit of pulling stuff from there first and your current inventory only if it is not available in the bank.

- Dibbler

[Kahnayda]

I've played EQ1 since the day it was publicly released. The changing economy went from decent player-player trading as well as sufficient merchant bought items to outfit the players. Nearing the end of the five years that I played I noticed that the prices skyrocketed, and no "centralized" economic control by SOE left players to overcharge and take advantage of fellow players. Now, in EQ2 it seems that the horrific economic theories are continuing. Interdependency in the world of tradeskills allows the elite few who specialize in the less popular tradeskills to monopolize the system and charge whatever they want for their products. True, ambition and profit are nice, but when it affects the entire server due to outrageously priced tempers for example, then it depletes the fun and excitement that was originally designed to follow tradeskilling. The 1silver + prices for a single temper are out of control, and once the existing recipe is deleted from outfitters who need it, then the chemists will be able to charge 5x, 10x, and more for their tempers. There's no logic in limiting the tradeskill process to the extent that you must either 1) Have tons of friends all specializing in different tradeskills, 2) pay high prices for low level sub-combine components, 3) use 1 of your 4 precious character slots to make a tradeskiller for a specific component from a certain tradeskill profession, or 4) wait around for the prices to fall or someone to be reasonable with their prices. However, the fourth option is HIGHLY unlikely, due to the naturally evil and corrupted nature of humans. Yet, SOE planned on the reasonability of players/tradeskillers to help each other and make the tradeskill process work like clockwork. Well, it does work like clockwork, except it's missing a few connecting wheels, and, therefore, SOE is completely wrong in their economic expectations. Maybe they should hire an economist to assist them in these kind of situations, or go to a local high school and ask anyone who has taken Economics 101 and they can tell you in much greater detail than me what needs to-or should have been- done. :mad:

___________________
Permafrost Server
14 Dark Elf Summoner
13 Outfitter

[PhantomCleric]

I guess I must have missed a paragraph or something in your response but I just don't see what part of this economic model you think won't work? Perhaps you could explain this economic 101 concept that would work better. As I see it an economical plan based on production that requires no outside influences in an infinite currency market would be much worse on free trade than an interdependency model.

I am an armorsmith, I can make none of my wares without at least two other classes. I do not have another character who I run to for this, I have a list of contacts. I met these people through the crafting channel, and I set up relations way back at level 10. I have never scribed any of the books that weren't ment for my class and so I have developed a contact list over the levels that allows me to create my product at a very regular rate and sell them for a very good profit. I have no trouble advancing in levels, making money, finding people to buy my wares or obtaining the required components. Now am I playing a different game?

Where all this doom and gloom comes from I will never understand. The economy works just fine, those who do not wish to be social enough to make friends of the other classes will find they pay more in higher prices through the broker. Everyone needs something, if they didn't there would be no use for the currency. My alchemist contact gets paid in finished products or resources, my Sage contact gets paid in paper and quills provided by my woodworker contact via another trade. There will not always be a one to one dependency and that is just fine, but there is always room for negotiation. If this was easy what fun would it be?

[Kahnayda]

Maybe in an attempt to dumb it down for the lesser educated, I might have left out a paragraph or something. Oh well. Your series of contacts system seems to work, for you. For those of us who have a life outside of EQ2, it might not work as well. I tend to play for a few hours at a time, and often do not see anyone on that could help me with sub-combine components. What fun is it to wait around on other people, or have to run around trading all kinds of people just to complete a simple, trivial level 10 mace? Which is what you are saying is "fun". I'm sorry, but the original economic system in EQ1 worked much better. You actually had to work to gather your own materials, find where everything is, put some of your own hard work into getting the items, then craft something from what you gathered. Occasionally you would have to buy a minor tool or component from a player, but you did not rely solely on them.

Honestly, no one else thinks it's totally outrageous that a weaponsmith can only supply himself with 1 out of 3 components to make a mace?

The current system is half-assed, and not does not take into consideration that such a system of interdependence on fellow tradeskillers does not lead to great production, but rather, 1) inflation and monopolies, or 2)cash shortages and a depleted market. Think about it...every 1 tradeskill relies on 2 other different tradeskills on average. It doesn't add up to anything but inefficiency. And anyone who has taken economics 101, the goal of a good economic system is to have 100% efficiency. With our current system, you'd be lucky to be at 25%. :eek:

[Fyrewynd]

The one thing I would like to see that I have seen in other games is to be able to also list orders to buy on your trader as well as items to sell. As an example I could put an order on my Trader to buy up to 100 Eilith Tempers for 25cp each. This would help to stabalize the economy also because alot of people would be willing to fill the orders IMHO. SOE has this in other MMORPG's not really sure why they did not add it to this one.

Fyrewynd

[PhantomCleric]

Maybe in an attempt to dumb it down for the lesser educated, I might have left out a paragraph or something. Oh well. Your series of contacts system seems to work, for you. For those of us who have a life outside of EQ2, it might not work as well. I tend to play for a few hours at a time, and often do not see anyone on that could help me with sub-combine components. What fun is it to wait around on other people, or have to run around trading all kinds of people just to complete a simple, trivial level 10 mace? Which is what you are saying is "fun".

The current system has multiple levels of self-limitation designed into it, this means if you don't do anything to help the market you will not progress past the market because you must support the market in order to effect your own profit. The old eq system was an economy system based on only one limiting factor, time. With the old system the people who lost out where those people who had "a life outside of EQ," the few people who could spend countless hours skilling up every single tradeskill were rewarded with being able to produce the high end merchandise that everyone wanted where as the low end things were not valued at all thus the term "grinding".

EQ2 allows for mutiple levels of market viability, you can make stuff that players can use from the first day. No, your profits will not be nearly as high as when you can make the upper teir merchandise but you can actually make a profit from the first tier. Each tier you move up provides you with a new target market. These may very well be the same customers for whom you have already supplied goods, but at the same time each tier limits the number of items you can create and increases your dependency on others. This prevents you from overly benefiting from being able to level past everyone else as well as encouraging cooperation between players in order to create more valuable items. This is a form of profit sharing, you will make a good deal on those teir 3 weapons and the benefit of that will be felt in the market not just in your bank. Now there is also a check in the form of quests, you can not corner the market and raise your prices too high or people will just not buy from you but rather do any number of quests to come up with comparable merchandise.

This sounds like a much more robust economy to me than we saw in eq1. I don't have to worry about blazing through the levels because my market will always be there. I can place supply orders and make products as I am supplied, exchanging my goods for the suppliers goods or trading part of my profits directly. I have taken economy classes and I don't know of anything that supports your claim that the EQ1 model is more efficent than the EQ2 model. So do feel free to educate me.

[Ausversucht]

The one thing I would like to see that I have seen in other games is to be able to also list orders to buy on your trader as well as items to sell. As an example I could put an order on my Trader to buy up to 100 Eilith Tempers for 25cp each. This would help to stabalize the economy also because alot of people would be willing to fill the orders IMHO. SOE has this in other MMORPG's not really sure why they did not add it to this one.

Fyrewynd

I'd like to know where you're going to find these magical people to fill this order. I would never fill an order such as this as it is BARELY about cost if at all above cost at all.

If there were so many people willing to make them for this much, then they would already be at that price on the broker.

No one in their right mind is going to save money to do this kind of order by spending thier own time harvesting, so they would have to go to the broker system for the components:

80cp for iron/electrum/turqoise (baseline best price)
6cp liquid
6cp candle

Total 92cp, produces 4 (about 90% of the time when PRISTINE)

Giving an actual cost of (DRUM ROLL)

25.56cp per Temper (This includes the 1/10 failure rate on pristine)

So actually they would be producing at a loss for a perfect stranger. I'm not that nice to do 25+ combines for a stranger for free. Are you?

[eepjr24]

80cp for iron/electrum/turqoise (baseline best price)
6cp liquid
6cp candle

Total 92cp, produces 4 (about 90% of the time when PRISTINE)

25.56cp per Temper (This includes the 1/10 failure rate on pristine)


I think part of the problem is your base cost of 80c for an item (probably you are basing this number off the amount you can get for doing a tier 2 quest for the items?). I can frequently buy those items for 24-40c on my server, and that is assuming that I didn't just pick them up when I was out looking for tubers or other stuff. So, to do the math, it is:

6cp liquid
6cp candle
Xcp Whatever you value your time at.

12cp + Xcp / (3.9)

The 3.9 assumes you make pristine 9/10 and the next level down the 10th. So, if your time or cost on the base item is an average of mine, 32c, it comes out to 11.3c round to 12, double for profit margin, 24c per wash with a 12cp margin. Now, in all actuality, I won't sell them for that because I value my time a bit more than that, but I have sold them for 50c each. All in all, it comes down to what you value for your time.

- Dibbler

[Ausversucht]

My 80cp assumption was that yes, you can use ALL tier 2 items for gathering quest that produce 12sp per 15. If you do get lucky and get a deal (usually only on the more common items) and you decide to pass that deal on to a complete stranger and value your time at next to nothing. Then go ahead and make those 100 tempers for 25cp each.

I value raw materials at the minimum 80cp each, because generally I wind up having to pay that (and sometimes more) when I need a few more to complete something I am working on. (and I generally only work on stuff for myself or my friends.)

I save the deals for myself. There are a few items that are commonly less than 80cp and usually it is NEVER electrum or turqoise, and sometimes iron is lower.

As for resins/oil/washes: Maple I can usually pick up cheap, but the tubers always seems to be right at that magic 80cp mark in the evening when I usually get to do the most work on it. Results will always vary and though you are entitled to charge whatever you feel fair, don't expect the same from Joe Schmoe who doesn't know you from Adam.


Edit: This all being said, I would (if I ever were to sell them) sell temper/resins/oils/washes for 75cp as I decided weeks ago that would be a fair price for them. I don't plan on going into that business though solely for that fact that I dread making these items for myself in any respectable quantities and would probably have to hike the price to some higher (unfair) price just to keep from having to spend ALL my time restocking. I would rather work on my outfitter than my friend's scholar.

[Fyrewynd]

The 25cp per temper was only meant to illustrate a point on how the order system would work, not as a real price point. That was just a number I pulled from my Wazoo. Now as to the Valuing your time I tend to concur that you need to put a price on your time. I however, would tend to sell items in bulk for a cheaper price point that I would to put them on my merchant.

Fyrewynd

[ThirdWizard]

I agree that putting out orders would be great. Mostly for trying to find items that noone seems to put up on the broker yet are needed, like Burlap Patterns. Every time I try to get those its an adventure. People have been very nice about it, though, and I usually find someone to help me out. The bad thing is that it would undermine the interdependancy between the crafters. Put up an order and overnight someone fills it, no need to talk to them. Yeah, I would miss that.

[Kitasi]

My biggest problem is that price is immaterial. The last 5 times I checked on the Freeport Broker, so nearly the last entire week, there were 0 Eolith Tempers to be had at any price. None, nada, zilch. I could not even make an Iron Bar at any cost for an entire week of my available play time...

[Euthan]

the Freeport_Crafting channel is great for finding people to trade interdependent items with, at least on my server (Lucan D'Lere)

[Thayne]

the Freeport_Crafting channel is great for finding people to trade interdependent items with, at least on my server (Lucan D'Lere)

Yes, yes, YES! Use the crafting and trading channels. Traffic and banter may vary, depending on city or server, but these are terrific resources; and you can hunt xp or be out and about harvesting raw materials and chat trying to find someone to make your _______.

[Vikken]

Problem is that a good smith can easily keep 2 or 3 people very busy making intems from other classes. It is very hard trying to find people willing to meet the demand, hence the high prices and low avilability. I suspect that in the future the devs will make multiple yield combines an option. Grinding interms for hours on end is just not fun, any way that you look at it.

[Vikken]

I agree the crafting and trade channels are invaluable. For those that don't realize it, we aren't talking about player run channels, these are channels that supported in-game. Open up your chat options on your chat window to add these channels. There are also channels for many other things as well.

[Scellan]

The one thing I would like to see that I have seen in other games is to be able to also list orders to buy on your trader as well as items to sell. As an example I could put an order on my Trader to buy up to 100 Eilith Tempers for 25cp each. This would help to stabalize the economy also because alot of people would be willing to fill the orders IMHO. SOE has this in other MMORPG's not really sure why they did not add it to this one.

Fyrewynd

Just get your wholesale society up to level 10. Eolith tempers and Stromas are 24c on merchant (shaped quality only) :D

Won't eliminate interdependency or trading...but will help some people make things when there is no one available to make what ya need.

[Breez]

The other thing that isn't being metioned is the old back stock.

I am level 21 tailor/22 Coercer I now get quests for Tier 3. I can NOT do Tier 1 and tier 2 wholeseller quests. Those 120 sullied low quilty rat skins are not woth 20cp each to me anymore. They are a waste of my bank space. The Chloro wash/resin/oil I still have is a waste of space and not worth keeping till I can get top penny for it any more.

I would love it if there was a WTB broker so I could sell them to a person at a price they wanted to pay just to get rid of them.

Soon the left over sullied average and the stromas I will have left will be MORE wasted space. I very well might be willign to part with them at 25cp.

[Nai`Ji]

Er.. sorry.. nm

[Durgrok]

The other thing that isn't being metioned is the old back stock.

I am level 21 tailor/22 Coercer I now get quests for Tier 3. I can NOT do Tier 1 and tier 2 wholeseller quests. Those 120 sullied low quilty rat skins are not woth 20cp each to me anymore. They are a waste of my bank space. The Chloro wash/resin/oil I still have is a waste of space and not worth keeping till I can get top penny for it any more.

I would love it if there was a WTB broker so I could sell them to a person at a price they wanted to pay just to get rid of them.

Soon the left over sullied average and the stromas I will have left will be MORE wasted space. I very well might be willign to part with them at 25cp.

Personally, I keep my low quality pelts and still make bags out of them sometimes. They have a variety of uses:

1- Keep two on you at all times, randomly give them to lowbies or struggling folks you meet that seem nice. Could end up helping you out/being a guildie some day thanks to your kind act.

2- I keep selling them alongside the higher ones; the profit margin may not be as great, but they tend to move faster than tanned - more people can afford them.

3- Tradebait; many times I don't want to trade a pristine tanned for this or that (usually components of some kind) but I don't mind trading a rawhide pack or three.

'course, I'm a more patient tradeskiller about levelling and so on - I don't allow either of my levels to pass the other by more than 2.

[Breez]

Sold 89 last night at 10cp per...

I think I am just as happy with my 9 silver + more bank space + time to make exp combines

but hey to each his own

[Auronan]

The one thing I would like to see that I have seen in other games is to be able to also list orders to buy on your trader as well as items to sell. As an example I could put an order on my Trader to buy up to 100 Eilith Tempers for 25cp each. This would help to stabalize the economy also because alot of people would be willing to fill the orders IMHO. SOE has this in other MMORPG's not really sure why they did not add it to this one.

Fyrewynd

That is a good idea that I am surprised has not made it into the game (well that and a consignment shop idea that allows players to sell items offline...)

[frdmlover]

Mules and Ats RUIN the role play factor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with IXNAY froma few pages back, I have one character and I am a role player. I don't want to create a mule for banking, and one for crafting those items I otherwise would have to sell my soul to buy. I am working hard to become a tailor and once I hit level 10 my crafting came to a screeching halt, no guildies on, no contacts, no money other than the 3 gold I have saved up from day one. I really enjoy the crafting in EQ2, I hated it in EQ1. I will continue but this thing of swindling the system with alts, or giving away goods because you are in a guild just doesn't make sense to me, thats not economy, thats nor even bartering, that is simply working with a flawed system. I think the very basic items such as temper or oils or wash I should be able to make. Iron spikes are not basic even for an outfitter, but the items I need from a scholar are basic for them, seems unreasonable and to be honest I dont wanna do all the math and all the finigaling and trickery and such. Up to level 10 the system worked great and I enjoyed it, once i hit ten I hit a stand still that I cant afford to overcome without a guild scholar being burdened with all the oils washes and tempers I need, and funny thing is he doesnt need my iron spikes or anything else that I make now to advance his skill. So in the spirit of role playing I am putting him out and he needs nothing from me. I think the level ten basic items shoud be reduced from bug to NORM and the advanced items can then be sold at market value and traded and bartered for. Just my two copper without all the math and calculations and bore. I just don't have that kinda time. Bt thanks to the guy with the 4:1 position, I will use that as my model for trading once the "bug" is removed, for now I am stocking up.

Lasciviouss (Antonia Bayle - Might of Stonewall)

[Thyr]

Just get your wholesale society up to level 10. Eolith tempers and Stromas are 24c on merchant (shaped quality only) :D

Won't eliminate interdependency or trading...but will help some people make things when there is no one available to make what ya need.


Hmm, so I can spend between 40c and 1.5 silver per to buy them from another player, or 24c to buy them from the vendor. Definitely liking the vendor for these, but sorta hate that for the scholars. Scholar cost for crafting an eolith or stroma is about 23c per assuming 100% pristine rate..meaning that they can take those right off their profitable subcombine list (thats factoring in the fair market value of raw tier 2 components at 80c each based on tier 2 wholesaler task return of 12s for 15 resource).

[Goonie]

Hmm, so I can spend between 40c and 1.5 silver per to buy them from another player, or 24c to buy them from the vendor. Definitely liking the vendor for these, but sorta hate that for the scholars. Scholar cost for crafting an eolith or stroma is about 23c per assuming 100% pristine rate..meaning that they can take those right off their profitable subcombine list (thats factoring in the fair market value of raw tier 2 components at 80c each based on tier 2 wholesaler task return of 12s for 15 resource).

I also know alot of scholars that are relieved they dont have the need to make stacks of grey items for guildees.

[Thyr]

I also know alot of scholars that are relieved they dont have the need to make stacks of grey items for guildees.

Lol, now that I can definitely believe. :)

[Korsis]

I agree with IXNAY froma few pages back, I have one character and I am a role player. I don't want to create a mule for banking, and one for crafting those items I otherwise would have to sell my soul to buy. I am working hard to become a tailor and once I hit level 10 my crafting came to a screeching halt, no guildies on, no contacts, no money other than the 3 gold I have saved up from day one.

Okay now maybe I'm missing something, because I admit I am a hack-n-slash MMORPG player at heart. But isn't the whole point of role playing to interact with other people rather than just working the mechanics of the game? And yet you complain that you have to interact with other people instead of playing solo style?

:confused:

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

No Korsis you have it 100% right. Folks who are unable or unwilling to socialize and make contacts in an MMORPG are the ones who will definately suffer a lower level and rate of success and advancment in an MMORPG.

Soloing is an OPTION. It is supported but the focus of the entire game is MMorpg. Massively Multiplayer. If you come into the game accepting and understanding that basic premise then you do a lot better. The games PURPOSE is large, grand and bigger than the one player experience. Your going to be relying on others almost constantly to advance (and likewise they will rely on you) and to succeed.

The sole measuring sticks of real success, the sole attributes needed to excel and succeed in any MMORPG are these: Free play time, the ability to socialise and make friends and determination. Those are the TRUE 'leet skillz' of the MMORPGer who is concetrating on game advancement. (You can obviously add the ability to Roleplay in there as well where appropriate and that is a skill unto itself as well as being a goal unto itself as well but it is not directly applicable to the current discussion).

If you have lower play time or do not want to socialise then get out of an MMORPG or accept that fact that your not going to be able to excel. Period.

Analogy: If I want to fly, but don't spend the time to get a pilots license and a job that enables me to afford a plane or plane rental, I would be foolish to complain that I cannot fly. In order to acheive that goal I need to spend the time and make the effort. If I don't make enough money to afford that then I need to change things in my life to make it happen or accept the fact that it will not fit in with my life, no matter how much I may WANT to fly.

Just like in RL there are hurdles/barriers in online games. They require time, commitment and effort. If your not willing or ABLE to put in that time and effort then your not going to succeed. That is a basic fundamental fact of all MMog's. Mind you I am not condeming those who are UNABLE to do so for whatever reason. But there is a minimum effort level that is needed to makea game interesting and challenging and if someone cannot make that then they may need to realise that this game is not one they can excel in.

Mind you EQ 2 is setup where you do not HAVE to play a lot. But in any game playing a lot will cause you to advance faster than those playing less. It is only logical. More effort is rewarded with more advancement.

And that is not unfair. If I spend 40 hours in one week I am advancing faster than someone who spends 40 hours in 4 weeks. We would both theoretically advance the same total amouint 40 hours of effort) but I would do it in shorter REAL WORLD time and therefore advance faster in the same REAL WORLD time period.

Join your server crafter channels. Socialise! Offer your combine services to other crafters for free or in trade for theirs. Barter your products for their products when you can.

Just last night I traded a stack of Carbonite bars for a Pristine 10 slot backpack. Both of us got what we wanted and both of us were happy. I got that deal from a referance by ANOTHER trader I had combined spikes for for free previously. Building good relations with the other crafters on your server is a great way to get the products you need and to drum up future business.

Not to mention you just might make a new friend or two and that is priceless in REAL life.