contents of the new books (per 2/9/05 patch)

[Anya]

These can all be bought at the wholesalers. Prices are in line with the first book of each tier.

Geomancy Essentials 1-4 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000001.jpg)
Geomancy Essentials 1-4 (scrolled to see bottom) (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000002.jpg)

Weaving Essentials 1-4 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000004.jpg)
Weaving Essentials 1-4 (scrolled to the bottom) (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000005.jpg)

Timbercraft Essentials 1-4 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000003.jpg)

and lastly
Apothecary Essentials 1-4 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000006.jpg)

at lvl 12 craftsman I can use the first book (tier 2) of each set.

[Anya]

and the corresponding new buffs

Tier 2 buffs New - Page 1 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000008.jpg)
Tier 2 buffs New - Page 2 (http://home.comcast.net/~robnjul/EQ2_000007.jpg)

[MrsMiller]

thanks a lot for that. now we see that it's not just the refining but the whole ink etc. disappointing :(

[Uoldar]

{snip} this forum is specifically for test server patch notices and questions/answers about said patches, not gripes/rants/etc.

[Khalee]

{snip} see above post. please voice your concerns/complaints in the proper forum. Thanks.

[Goonie]

Dont worry. Some people like myself are just too plain lazy and will still buy from others.

[Savin]

Anya,

I just wanted to confirm what I see from these images and your notes:

1) Any crafter is able to use any of the 4 new disciplines
2) The new rcipe books start at level 10 [book 1 is the tier 2 recipes, book 2 is the tier 3 recipes, etc]
3) The recipes are just copies of the same recipes. In otherwords the equipment and skill required to make an item are unchanged. If it used to require weaponshaping, it still does.
4) Geomancy is effectively smithing on the forge or metal making on the worktable
5) Weaving is tailoring oin the sewing station, but also includes the patterns made at the sscribing station.
6) Timbercraft is the stuff made on the woodworking station
7) Apothecary is weird. its the reins, washes, tempers and oils, plus the ink, pluss the bottles, plus thread(??) [which is also on the weaving?? -- error?


Now a tricky thing... the new 4 disciplines also have buffs and I assume counters and events. Does that mean the new recipes are the same as the old ones they are copies of except that they use one of the four new skills?

I assume from your posting that we all get all four of the new disciplines automatically at each tier. So that means using the new spells I can easily make pristines using the new recipes. In fact, anyone could now make pristine inks.

Since anyone can make pristines using the new skills and new recipes it looks like every trade is not totally self sufficient and there is no need to work together to make stuff.

I also assume that we get skill raises using the new tier 2 buffs, just like in the other classes.

Does that mean we also have a new pair of skills one that goes up with level and one that goes up with use but is capped at the same level as the one that goes up with level?

Does it also mean that the current recipes have changed to use the new disciplines (I assume it does or it would be confusing)

I think it also means the following:

1) Alchemists make speels for figthers and posions/potions
2) Sribes make spells for healers and mages
3) Jewlers make jewelry and spells for scouts
4) Tailors make clothing for mages and some scouts and healers and fighters
5) Weaponsmiths make weapons
6) Armorers make clothing for mighters and a few other sub sclasses that can wear chain
7) Woodworkers make bows, staves, shields, wands, totems etc
8) Carpenters make boxes and furniture
9) Cooks make food

I can't see any dependencies left at all?

..... I think its a shame.... the way the classes were designed needed some balancing... but to just throw the whole interdendencies out the window seems like a sad end to the concept. It would be like saying "grouping is too hard so instead everyone can now solo anything".

Oh well....

[Anya]

1) Any crafter is able to use any of the 4 new disciplines

yes as a Tier 2 craftman I have scribed book 1 of all 4 new disciplines

2) The new rcipe books start at level 10 [book 1 is the tier 2 recipes, book 2 is the tier 3 recipes, etc]

correct

3) The recipes are just copies of the same recipes. In otherwords the equipment and skill required to make an item are unchanged. If it used to require weaponshaping, it still does.

same recipe, different skill used for the combine. all classes (that I can see) still retain the same recipes in their own books ie. carpenter essentialls 20 still has ash lumber in it.


4) Geomancy is effectively smithing on the forge or metal making on the worktable

iron plate, hook, rings, etc shows up as using the forge.

5) Weaving is tailoring oin the sewing station, but also includes the patterns made at the scribing station.

yes. ie. tanned hilt, crafted at the loom

6) Timbercraft is the stuff made on the woodworking station
yes

7) Apothecary is weird. its the reins, washes, tempers and oils, plus the ink, pluss the bottles, plus thread(??) [which is also on the weaving?? -- error?


actually washes are missing completely and iron plate is listed in three places. I've /bugged both. Its gonna take some time to more thoroughly answer your questions but I can tell you I bought all four tier two books and made myself up a batch of stroma with little effort. Right now I am trying to build up a little cash so I can test stuff to a greater extent. Right now fuel costs make things ugly.


there are three counters for T1 and 2 thus far .. using the new apothecary as a fast example

Tier 1 (#'s are per the exact description on the buff)

Stir - Increase progress by 6-6
Coalesce - Decrease success chance by 6-6% \\ increase progress by 6-16
Test - decrease durability 3-3 \\ increase progress 8-8

Tier 2

Agitate - increase durability by 10-10
Consolidate - decrease success chance 6-6% \\ increase durability by 10-10
Examine - decrease progress by 24-24 \\ increase durability by 10-10

[Magnum]

On the Tier 2 Examine buff (hope its just a typo) but you mean

Examine - decrease progress by 24-24 \\ increase durability by 10-10

correct?

Also noticed that washes were missing from the books.

Oh, and thanks much for all the info you've given so far Anya. Much appreciated! :)

[Anya]

oops. yes. *edits post again*

[Iandude]

Make sure to get them to add washes if u play on test, since it seems missing nod, and i cant wait, i will love to tradeskill again finally.

[Wolfysins]

Okay, I'm amused. Lots of people complain about the cross-dependencies. So SOE implements a means of eliminating at least some (perhaps all) of the crafter cross-dependencies, and people complain.

I think maybe they decided it wasn't working that well. I thought mostly it was. Mostly. I would have preferred that refining / planing lumber used my primary skill as a carpenter, instead of a secondary skill. But I could still make pristine goods planning my own lumber, so that was okay by me.

I suppose this means I might not have to level my 25 alchemist any further. I only made him for WORTs. It would be nice to focus all the low level combining XP on a single toon.

My primary carpenter pretty much never makes subcomponents for anyone else. Sure, I *can* make a few subcomponents, but I never bother unless a guildmate asks or someone is offering a very attractive price. So this is all good news for me.

Really sucks to be an alchemist right now, unless poisons and potions are suddenly going to become worth making.

[Wolfysins]

So... does this mean we'll get tier 3 buffs for the new skills?

[Moonshade]

I don't want to edit every post in here that isn't strictly about test server patch info/questions. If you want to voice concerns about the change, take it to Primal please. Thanks.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Pardon my density but does this means ALL crafters of any kind get 4 new skills? All crafters can scribe these books and ALL crafters can make any of these recipes, using skills that will allow them to do so and new counters associated with these new skills?

For example I am a level 41 weaponsmith. To make weapons handles I have to use the level 10 outfitter coutners and a level 19 capped tailoring skill.

If I am undertstanding this, the new system will allow me to use a new skill that caps at my level to make my weapon handles, with new counters that cap at my level as well? And I can do this for any and all subcombines in game if I have the books?

If that is so then I am totally boggled. They have basically made every trade class the same with the sole exeption of finished good recipe combines? Do I understand this right?

[harvyst]

It looks like there are no rare recipes in here.

Perhaps there are dropped books? or is it intentional?

Can sages make rare ink?

[Anya]

cant confirm either way yet. Not much economy on test. broker has perhaps 10 pages total and I am much too small to be getting advanced book drops still :) can go back stuff in Oakmyst soon though and see

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

It looks like there are no rare recipes in here.

Perhaps there are dropped books? or is it intentional?The patch notes from test specifically mention some of the new books would be dropping off mobs as well so I can only assume that means that those would be the rare combine versions of these normal books.

[govtcheeze]

Still trying to get my head around this, but if I am reading this correctly we ONLY get first book of the new tier. This is exactly what happened for tier 2, when we were able to scribe those books only (which I still say was intended, and this "change" proves it). We *CAN* make these refines, but the quality will be low. This will mean less xp per final combine if we make our own interms (all are not pristine = lower xp for the final, as I understood it), or longer time on combines if you fight to get the pristine. I also hope the new buffs are progress only, and not durability...this will further reinforce this.

To me, the only tier that was working was 1-2. Making our own interms was hard, time consuming, and frustrating. It was MUCH easier to have someone of the appropriate class to make them for us and trade them for interms. The only time it was worth making my own was when no one was available to make them. So far, I like this change...but let's see how it pans out, and if I even unstand it correctly.

I just REALLY hope they fix the final combines for classes. As a t5 jeweler, selling an item for COST now was nearly impossible. If they now cost 4-6x more due to fuel costs, forget about it. I know alchs are now in the same boat, and other crafters I am sure.

[Anya]

My test character is a lvl 12 craftsman. I scribed all FOUR of the above 'white con' books. - Geomancy 1, Weaving 1, Timbercraft 1, Apothecary 1 - there IS only 1 "essential" book per tier. Someone mentioned that test notes denote new book drops. Likely it will be Advanced Weaving 1, 2, 3 etc. so that rare combines can also be done w/in their own chosen class and not have to turn to another class to have them made.

Stroma went all the way to pristine for me - and I got 4 yield just like an alch. Wasnt difficult to get pristine either. I also made some trinoid reagent w/o much effort. Cant get any further because washes are missing but I will say that I remember that the reagent was the hardest part of making ink from my alch on live.

[Foladar]

Just a quick question about tiered fuel .. is it required (ie as level 10 you MUST use the t2 fuel) or is it simply recommended?

[Adagia]

Tier 2 recipes will require tier 2 fuels.

[Foladar]

Tier 2 recipes will require tier 2 fuels.
Have you confirmed this?

[Anya]

lookin right at it. brown coal (t2), will only 'plug in' to tier 2 recipes.

[Anya]

I was going over the notes at EQ2 that moorgard updated tonight (and mentioned this live push *sigh*) and found I missed this tidbit : These skills increase through use. Now I gotta go back and see if this is the case. I never got a 'skillup' of apothecary yet it was sitting right there with culinary at 63/63. :confused: Time to go push a couple mini dings more and see what it does.

addendum :

*ding!* - and with closer examination - ah-ha what light dawns on marble head. :D the flipping of the ink knowledge / technique threw me and had me looking the wrong way. (which, incidently wasnt fixed in the 2/10 patch)

apothecary 66/66 - static for books
thaumaturgy 32/68 - fluctuates for quality

geomancy 66/66
geocraft 31/68

weaving 66/66
binding 31/68

timbercraft 66/66
woodcraft 31/68


so likely with use for your trade you will skill these up anyway but my 50 prov likely wont be making inks anytime soon unless I decide to retake up t2 carpentry in my spare time.. and with fuel costs.. not likely. :) So with dilligence to skills you can still make good quality (not that you need good quality) subs, including chem/ink.

[Bakual]

Short question: I'm not familiar with the english skillnames as I play on Valor (German). thaumaturgy, geocraft, binding and woodcraft are the regular crafterskills that are used by the appropriate crafter? Eg binding is the skill for the sage and woodcraft for the woodworker?
And the is their respective cap now raised to the level of our actual mainskill?

I'm a bit confused right now but I could see a logical pattern now behind the change that still would have some interdepencies left in the game. Even if small.

[Anya]

there are no dependecies left. All subcombines have been put into the hands of the people that need them. Think back to lvl 9 when you were running from the Alchemy table to the forge to the woodcraft table just to make your first elm box. Its like that only each class still retains full control over its essential FINAL combines. Tailors are still the only backpack makers, Alchemists are the only ones making poisons and potions. Jewelers only make jewelry, etc.

As a sidenote - People can still CHOOSE to farm out their subcombines and chem and I daresay those that havent yet made an alt to do so, will likely continue to buy elsewhere.

Each of these skillbooks can be scribed and by every artisan if they meet the level (tier) requirement. How much they want to maintain that skill is completely up to them.

[Mithas]

thaumaturgy, geocraft, binding and woodcraft are the regular crafterskills that are used by the appropriate crafter? Eg binding is the skill for the sage and woodcraft for the woodworker?

Anya is correct, but to answer your question more directly, no, the 4 listed skills are entirely new and no classes on the live servers currently have them. The normal skills for the classes, such as scribing for sage and fletching for woodworkers are unchanged, and the 4 new ones are available to all crafting classes, effectively removing all requirements for interdependency.

[Bakual]

Oki, thanks you folks. Now I understand everything and it doesn't sound THAT bad anymore. :)

[Yellowspine]

And don't know if this was mentioned before ... but making the "rare" items, would still fall strickly under your class as well.

Like for me being an alchemist, I assume only alchemists will be able to make the rare ink for Adept 3s.

[Drubear]

And don't know if this was mentioned before ... but making the "rare" items, would still fall strickly under your class as well.

Like for me being an alchemist, I assume only alchemists will be able to make the rare ink for Adept 3s.Nope, if you get the book and have the level you're gtg.

Books that contain rare refines are drop only, like live, but have been seen dropping and scribable by any of the appropriate level on Test. There's a posting on the official boards (don't have the link at hand but check the Test forum.)

Not to say that can't change, it being Test and all, yadda yadda yadda, but for now...

[Savin]

Just to confirm,

There are 8 new skills in pairs of two for the 4 new disciplines. Theya re just like any of the 9 prime ones in that a tier 2 or higher buff has a chance to increase skill.

They made a post on the new sell back being based on fuel. Is this being calculated correctly? Or does it just use the fuel cost of the final combine?

The biggest problem on test is there no real test economy. On the live servers there is no doubt that some classes were only viable because they made sub components. A good example was a woodworker. Almost no one buys bows because the drops are very good and not many classes use a bow anyway. The market for arrows is almost non existant. But the market for quills and paper was good. Now we are making a loss on sell back to vendor and there is no market. that means to level this class will be very expensive. Is there a change I'm not seeing? In all fairness some classes were already broken [weaponsmith for example, the drops are really good here]

[Latormenta]

Regarding the dropped books, has there been any hint of a "migration" for higher level characters?

What I'm thinking about specifically is the problem currently on live servers with Artisan Essentials Volume 4, Refining 5&6, and Escutcheon 6. They only drop in chests, so they won't drop for higher level characters.

I'm concerned that if every high level crafter loses the ability to refine tier 1 rares, I could see the new dropped books going for staggering sums of money. There will be hordes of lowbie alts (with XPs turned off) farming the books for phat cash. It would be nice if they anticipated this problem and took steps to prevent it. Maybe anyone who had scribed the x0 book for their sub-class would automatically have scribed the equivalent book(s).

Edit: I just thought of another migration issue. This doesn't affect me (carpenter) much, because my refining skills are bad. But a high tier weaponsmith, for example, currently has a skill of over 200 when refining fulginate bars. Will they start out with a minumum skill (15?) when they scribe the book? Are they going to have to grind out hundreds (thousands?) of crude & shaped bars to work their skill back up to where they can process fulginate reliably? Does anyone on test have any info about this issue?

[Mithas]

My understanding was that every tradeskill class could still make everything they can make now, i.e. no recipes are being removed. The new skills and recipes are just something being added on top. So, as a weaponsmith, I can still refine carbonite and steel and make spikes etc, using my weaponry/metalworking, but if say a provisioner wanted to make them, they would have to buy/find the new books and use the new skills. Can anyone confirm or rebuke this?

I really hope it's going to be the way as I described, otherwise everyone is going to have to go back to tier one, even the level 50's, to build up the new skills so they can make their own subcombines.

[Anya]

yes they duplicate. that's why I am currently looking at two recipes for tapa paper and three recipes for steel plates (the third is a bug, I think since its listed twice in the same book). Its similar to the phenomenon that occurred when a person scribed the lvl 10 essentials books outside their craft. (ie. paying someone to go snag lvl 10 outfitter essentials for you when you're a scholar)

[Moonshade]

A quick thanks to everyone for keeping this on-topic and non-ranty, and another big thanks to Anya for your tireless helpfullness. :)

[Euthan]

The patch notes from test specifically mention some of the new books would be dropping off mobs as well so I can only assume that means that those would be the rare combine versions of these normal books.

I don't understand, there was never any interdependcy in regards to rare components before...a rare component was always the primary ingredient in a recipe, the other secondary stuff was simply the normal interim materials.

That being said, what would be the purpose for someone besides an Outfitter for example to refine a blackened iron cluster into a blackened iron bar? To my knowledge (which I admit is limited) there are no rare item interims...which these special skills/recipes are taking care of.

[kono]

I don't understand, there was never any interdependcy in regards to rare components before...a rare component was always the primary ingredient in a recipe, the other secondary stuff was simply the normal interim materials.

That being said, what would be the purpose for someone besides an Outfitter for example to refine a blackened iron cluster into a blackened iron bar? To my knowledge (which I admit is limited) there are no rare item interims...which these special skills/recipes are taking care of.
The prime example would be Sages and Jewelers making rare inks for Adept III upgrades.

A less obvious example would be that Carpenters armed with these new Advanced recipes would have a better chance of making pristine rare planed wood/cloth swatches/metal plates for their rare furniture. Currently, they can make them, but in each case, the skill used to do so is capped at 50 or 100. In the case of rugs and most metal furniture, this prevents pristine end results.

najena.konopo

[Wiltavian]

Looks like Wash is missing from all the alchemy related books.

[Anya]

actually washes are missing completely and iron plate is listed in three places. I've /bugged both.

aye. and wasnt fixed in this mornings patch either.

[Savin]

Anya,

I'm not an expert across all the trades, but I think there were a few cases where a class made a sub component that they never used in any of their final assemblies. Have these been removed? For instance, I think jewlers make a pommel. Is the pommel still there in their book?

If this change really goes live I think the duplication would really confuse any brand new user.

[Couzan]

The reason for this change "might" be that there just wasn't enough people doing tradeskills. Right now there are 67,336 people over level 20 (according to http://eq2.strobe.org/) out of how many thousands of chracters on every server.

SOE stated long ago that they "wanted" the tradeskill version of items to be as good as or slightly better than dropped/quested versions of items. This might be an attempt to get more people interested and doing tradeskills which will put more items on the market.

Just a thought. On the same token, I like that they still made final combines createable by only the primary class.

[Astarelle]

Just to clarify something for me, can you only mem the new spells at the start of each tier? In other words, someone has to be at least level 30 in some sub-class to make level 30 sub-components, correct?

[Anya]

correct Astarelle.

wanted to say that I heard Advanced Apothecary 2 dropped in the steppes tonight off giants. didnt get a look at the contents but if I do I will try and get an SS of it.

[Breez]

I was thinking about the comments earlier about EQ1 Spidersilks and Leather padding.

I think this would be pertinent IF EQ2 followed the same logic where we used grey combines in higher level recipes.

If you do not get exp from these off class combines, then it would be relevant. However if I can create WORTS and get exp (even at an expanded cost) then there is a good chance I may do so depending on price.

People paid a premimum on those spider silks, heady kolias (wow been so long I am not sure that was right), and leather paddings because of the time saved harvesting AND the time doing hundreds of combines for no chance at a skill up.

I would LOVE for them to make all of these new books give no exp for any of the items in them. That would still provide you a way to progress if nothing is avilable on the brokers but would encurage people to still contact your local fellow tradeskillers to do the combines for you.

I know in my guild folks hate doing sub combines that are grey for people that are a tier or 2 behind them. I can't imagine doing hundreds of threads for a up and coming level 21 armoror, let alone him trying to get that tier WORTS and Patterns because they are all grey to our primary craftsmen.

[Latormenta]

I think their original idea was that the societies would fill this role. As the crafting player base inevitably becomes top heavy, the societies would have slowly levelled up to be able to provide a source for many of an up-and-coming crafters needs.

I don't think they've quite done the societies right, however. Ever since people have had to harvest their own resources for the harvesting tasks, the societies have all but stopped leveling. I suppose, under the new system, the societies might start to level again, since workshop tasks are supposed to actually generate a profit.

[Duncan]

Can someone on Test clarify the statement (made by Frizznik, I think) that using these "new skills" like geomancy will require double fuel when compared with the original skill?

In other words if my tailor needs studs for armor he makes a decision to use the new skills and counters, plus two tier-appropriate fuels, to make his own studs, and slowly raise his geocraft skill, OR buys them from an armorer/weaponsmith/jeweler/whoever it is that makes studs who uses "old school" methods and 1 fuel of the appropriate tier.

My thinking is that at the higher tiers, the cost of double fuel might keep these subcombines right where they were, with woodworkers making paper, and jewelers making buckles, etc.

[Eirgorn]

Hey Duncan,

I think that the refines will only take 1 fuel, but cross class interims will take 2. This will mean that it will still be more economical to get your subs from the appropriate class unless a)there are none available, and you can keep crafting by making them yourself b) if the only interims available are way overpriced (in regards to how you value your time) then you can make them yourself.

BTW are you on Kithicor?
<-----Nimmh : )

[Duncan]

Thanks for clarifying! That seems like a pretty balanced approach. And no, all 4 of my Qeynos-loving, heroic acting characters are on Najena. Most of my mispent youth in EQ1 was on Luclin.