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View Full Version : Alchemy, Post Patch - My Thoughts


harvyst
01-07-2005, 01:31 PM
I must say, I'm fairly disappointed with yesterday's patch. On Unrest, we have a big problem of "ye old Alchemy bot" overruning the market. So I believe some of the changes were designed to discourage the botter. The problem is - these changes actually discourage the real live human Alchemist, while leaving the botter relatively untouched.

Allow me to explain this.

Yesterday's patch changed a few things about alchemy. Our tier 1 and 3 ? spells now take 20% mana, our tier 2 and 4 ? spells take 30 % mana. Tier 2 and 4 increase durability. Tier 1 and 3 increase progress. Now our book and beaker icons power change remain relatively unchanged - I can boogie on them all night long and not loose power. But lo, if I hit ? - I am in a world of hurt. And yet, ? is the best way to raise durability. And if a ? event comes up that I want to counter to avoid looking stupid (The Chemistry table almost NEVER kills, so there really is no need to counter) - I loose so much power it makes me wince. Another thing that happened is it seems I get a lot more negative rolls. Not negative events - just negative rolls. -100, -50 happens a lot more frequently now. So I desperately need durability - and the one buff that actually really affects durability is now a mana sucker.

I'm a tier 5 alchemist, and there's another issue. We never got our tier 5 buffs when we dinged 40. In fact, no class did. So our tier 5 buffs - which should have increased progress - are missing. We're using tier 3 buffs which are grey. If we could use our tier 5 buffs we wouldn't spend so much time fighting the negative rolls - we could move more quicker towards the ending. But alas, they're not there, and there's never been an explination for the lack of tier 5 buffs from SOE.

The end result of these two issues is that there is now no reason to counter events. The best way to get through it seems to be hit beaker-book every tick, endlessly, never hitting ?, never responding to events since they don't seem to give any boost and you won't ever die from them, and accept that you'll end up with about 75% pristine rate. If you try to fight and maintain pristine using ?, you'll loose all your power and end up medding for about a minute, in which you could've nearly completed another wash so it's pointless to fight for pristine.

How does this affect the botter? Well, not much. They change their code to hit beaker-book, and it just takes a bit longer for them to complete, but since they can go to work and leave the bot running, the lower pristine rate doesn't hurt their profits that much. After all - they are making so much liquids that they can afford a smaller profit margin.

How does this affect the real live human alchemist? Well, it's deadly. It's boring to sit there hitting beaker-book without trying to counter events. It's boring to know that since beaker-book tier 4 don't raise durability much that it's pointless to try and regain pristine. It's boring to know that the fate of my wash is totally in the hands of the computer.

On top of this, it takes longer. Now I used to run an order based business. I'd get an order - say, 200 washes. Now since roots can be a wash, oil, or resin, I'd keep it raw until someone puts in an order, then go churn it out, because someone may want 300 oils, another may want 200 washes, you never know what's hot today. This was okay until yesterday. I'd tell the person, okay, see you in an hour, I'd go do it, then we'd do the trade, they're happy, I'm happy, I don't sit AFK in my room, they get exactly what they want and don't have to wait for someone to put stuff up in vendor.

But now it's taking me 1 hour to do 9 stacks. That's ~7-8 minutes per stack. That means it's taking me longer to fill orders, and customers get restless when there's a long delay between ordering and the fufillment, especially if they just want to get their grind on. So they get grumpy because it's taking longer - and the orders are piling up.

I'm also rethinking my raw to resource strategy. Before I would do 1 raw = 2 liquids deals. Now I'm thinking against it. The reason is, I'm only getting 75% pristine rate. Before I was walking away with about a 95% pristine rate so there really was a nice margin of profit for me to do a 1 for 2 deal. Now it's more like I get 1/4th back from the deal - it's just not worth it. It's worth more to me and my time to search the broker and buy the resources or go harvesting myself than to grind for no money on other people's materials at this slow pace. But people are cheap, they'd rather I use their resources.... I'm going to have to start telling people no. Because it's not worth my time to turn 4 stacks into liquids and only get 1/4th back for myself.

But a bot can still do the raws for liquids thing, because they want the raws to get xp off of while they are at work. Again, they are mass producing, so their margins can be lower. Whereas I only ts when I'm pushing the buttons, so my patience is lower, and my expected reward for my effort is higher... they just come home from work and sell everything they've made while they were working.

Anyway.

This whole thing also hurts the last class that needed to be hurt more... Sages. I can't guarantee pristines anymore. So my failure rate for pristine ink - which they now NEED for app IV - just went through the roof. 25% failure rate on reagents. 25% failure rate on dyes. 25% failure rate on the ink. Which means ink just got more expensive and more people are going to stop doing it. Sages already have a hard time getting ink and affording ink. They don't need ink to become twice the price it is now!

I am disappointed.

This whole situation could be fixed with a few changes.

1) Put in tier 5 buffs. There's no reason they should not be there. This will speed things up a bit.

2) Make reactions more deadly. Like the forge. You NEVER hear of a forge botter. If you want to get rid of bots - make them pay attention! If they have to counter that event that their bot program can't see - they'll give up after a few deaths and go away. Or at least it'll stop their progress every hour or so as they die and lie on the floor spamming keys.

3) Reduce the power consumption of ?. I can't counter events with it - it just takes too much mana. I don't know why this one item takes up nearly 30% of my mana, and if I get more than three ? events during 1 wash, I can't counter.

If you do these 3 things, it will reduce botting in Alchemy. It will reduce the aggrivation of the human alchemy players. It will make ink less gruelling than it is today (it will still suck, but at previous suckage levels).

Anyway, that's my 2 cp.

Vorvox
01-07-2005, 02:27 PM
I was wondering if my power bar had a leak in it. So they make the most power hungry crafting buffs even more power hungry.. great

I love my job :)

parki
01-07-2005, 02:56 PM
It seems I can reply in here without being bashed.

I'm also feeling the pain as an Alchemist (I haven't tried WW since, so I cant comment much on that).

I agree to suggestion #1 and #3, but I have to disagree with #2.

Current macro/botting programs can reply to these events correctly. That's something most people seem to keep forgetting.

I keep thinking SOE wants to get rid of us. Really :(


BTW: If those are your failure rates, then pristine ink will only be a 42% of the total made.

dogbones
01-07-2005, 03:01 PM
Sigh and here I was thinking they would fix Sage as I'd rather go this route than Jewler or Alchemist.

I don't seem to have as high a failure rate as you do but I did throw in the towel last night after getting to the dye stage for Gual (at Tier 2 we can still make our own inks for those that do not know). Too frustrating.

Lets hope they fix some of these things. But what worries me is this is what they intended, to make things a bit harder and squeeze the market as they see where things are headed on some of the older/active servers.

dogbones
01-07-2005, 03:06 PM
Current macro/botting programs can reply to these events correctly. That's something most people seem to keep forgetting.


I was wondering how advanced the bots were.

Can they actually manipulate mouse events (i.e. drive the mouse) or just analyze what is on screen (graphically or from the text box) and then present key codes/strokes?

I've actually not paid attention to see if an event is logged to the text boxes as well as shown on screen. I know if you get hit by one that is displayed in the text box.

If the bots cannot drive the mouse wouldn't the fix be to not allow the crafting skills to be dragged onto a hot bar and thus activated by key strokes. It would be a bit of a hassle for users but definitely do able (unless you had some physical handi-cap such that you could not use a mouse).

Hmm, I am thinking a complex bot could use a keyboard 'mouse' and a fixed/known position of the crafting skills page and still activate them, but it would need to be more complex.

harvyst
01-07-2005, 03:09 PM
BTW: If those are your failure rates, then pristine ink will only be a 42% of the total made.

Yes, I was waiting for someone who knew statistics to tell me that :) I always forget how to do odds when against other odds.

I'm just glad I loaded my sage friend up with inks pre-patch. So he's working off what I made him on Monday and Tuesday, so I've got some extra time to make some more for this weekend. But it's going to hurt.

I've not heard of any bot program that can counter events. Our infamous botter, who I will not name, died while botting on the Chemistry Table from not countering and flopped on the floor for four hours until his owner came home and revived him. It was very funny. Now sadly, dying from the Chem Table is rare, this is the only time it happened. But it was amusing to think of him spamming keys while dead.

Lange
01-07-2005, 03:34 PM
It's going to hurt more than just alchemists too. The reduced number of pristines compounds 3 times when making inks. People are already talking about doubling their prices for inks.

This is going to hurt everyone. And, like the rest of you, I fail to see the point of this. It hurts the botters the least and actually encourages them by removing competition.

FelishannaSecretlight
01-07-2005, 06:23 PM
OOC.

Four points :-

Another thing that happened is it seems I get a lot more negative rolls. Not negative events - just negative rolls. -100, -50 happens a lot more frequently now.

I too have noticed the "fail" rate on rolls seems to have risen, infact, to have skyrocketed, but not specifically with this patch, but in the last week or so. However, I have only seen this huge increase in fails on Aurielle (my alchemist); the increase in fails just seems to have been a lot less noticeable on my Sage and Woodworker.

I have a suspicion something was changed here.

Make reactions more deadly. Like the forge.

Well, I'd not go that far. I do like the fact that each work position gives damage in proportion to what one might expect - a bad move at a forge, spilling molten metal on oneself, is likely to be more lethal than a mistake made whilst trying to juice an orange, come on now *grin*. However, in spirit, I agree with you, an increase in the damage from events at other stations would do a lot more harm to (at least some) "botters" than it would to normal (real) players.

Reduce the power consumption of ?.

I think they will. SoE have already posted that the power increases were not as intended, and will be corrected. This one is I believe way to high now, so it's likely one they will reduce again (though perhaps not back to what it was before, knowing past form on such things).

Anyway, that's my 2 cp.

I have to disagree here. That was a *lot* more than just two copper-worth. ;)

Felishanna.

Drugar
01-08-2005, 07:19 AM
Finally got around to doing some more tradeskilling and started by making some tempers...
.....
.....
ouch... that patch hurt. Ok, changing the skills around is one thing, but they should at least have the abilities do what they say they are going to do.

Synthesis: (T2 bottle icon)
Description: As well as increasing your durability by a LARGE amount but lowering your power by a medium amount.

What Synthesis REALLY does:
Durability: +10 (which is a MEDIUM increase)
Power: -20% or so roughly (which is medium)

so far it looks like they only screwed up on how much durability it gives... oh wait, whats this?
Progress: -20 (LARGE decrease)
gotta love hidden crap like this. and yes, I tested it many times to make sure I wasn't just getting partial failures.

I haven't really tested the others yet, other than to notice that the others aren't matching what the description has it marked as either.. Do some tests, don't trust inforation from SOE that you would assume would be correct. Find a combination that works good for you.


Edit: Ok fine.. did some testing and this is what I can up with:

?
T1 T2 T3 T4
Power -25 -15 -20 -25
Durability 0 10 0 15
Progress 2 10 18 0
Success ? ? ? ?

book
T1 T2 T3 T4
Power 0 0 0 0
Durability 0 10 -9 10
Progress 14 -20 14 -20
Success ? ? ? ?

bottle
T1 T2 T3 T4
Power 0 -20 0 0
Durability 0 10 0 5
Progress 14 -20 21 0
Success * ? * *

the power costs are in percentages.. roughly anyway. I could not test success decreases, so only marked which were listed as having an effect to success (which doesn't mean anything).

Sorry about the poor formatting with the cut/paste table.. not bothing to fix it though..

Drugar B`Galx -- Crushbone

Hydian
01-08-2005, 09:09 AM
Just to add...potions now sell back to the vendor at a loss. Tier 2 potions sell back for 67cp.

They have pretty much removed player skill as a factor with these changes. Now with the limits of 1 durability and 1 progress effect along with the power costs, they basically preset what everyone will use.

harvyst
01-08-2005, 04:19 PM
Thank you for the thoughtful analysis, Drugar.

Hmm. I am torn. Right now the power use of ? makes is impractical to use unless you are fighting to regain durability.

So that leaves bottle/book combos.

So if you go t4 bottle t3 book, you get -4 durability +14 progress.

If you go t4 book t3 bottle, you get +10 durability +1 progress.

So it appears if you want to just raise progress, going with plain t3 bottle is the way to go. (+21)

Perhaps the best combo is alternating rounds of t4 book/t3 bottle (+10/1) then next round just t3 bottle (+21) ?

There does not seem to be a combo that raises both durability and progress without using ?, and right now I cannot afford manawise to do so.

Davril
01-08-2005, 04:38 PM
I do like the fact that each work position gives damage in proportion to what one might expect - a bad move at a forge, spilling molten metal on oneself, is likely to be more lethal than a mistake made whilst trying to juice an orange, come on now *grin*.
In that case, the Chemistry table should not be far behind the forge in lethality. Aqua regia (fuming hydrochloric acid / nitric acid mix) is quite dangerous, heating anything flammable over a candle is risky, and mistaking one chemical name for another can get you in trouble real fast.
*grins back*

Later,
Davril

parki
01-08-2005, 08:18 PM
I was wondering how advanced the bots were.

Quite a lot, and not a lot, it depends on the skill of the _macroer_.

Can they actually manipulate mouse events (i.e. drive the mouse) or just analyze what is on screen (graphically or from the text box) and then present key codes/strokes?

They can manipulate mouse events (click, drag and drop, move the mouse around..), analyze if something is on the screen via image matching (that's probably how macros reply to events), present key codes and more :S

Since macros started hitting FFXI (where I played before) I spent some time analyzing the current state of macro programs.

My worst finding was that if you have some programming skills you can do lots of things with them.

At least there's a good point: I think there are no public macros for EQ2 around.

But it's really weird for a MMO for such a program to exist, indeed.

Unregistered
01-10-2005, 11:04 AM
I also looked into the abilities of the macro programs as well as the thought had crossed my mind.

Yes, it is possible to write a macro that will respond to an event. It would however be fairly sensitive to lag. What your would do is write a loop to roughly do the following:

Loop Every 6 seconds
Read Pixel Color at Screen position X,Y
If Pixel Color = Red
Key Press "question mark"
ElseIf Pixel Color = Tan
Key Press "scroll"
Else
Key Press "beaker"
End If
Repeat Forever

Using the screen reader you can get the hex codes for the pixel color as well as the exact coordinates on the screen. Lag would be a problem as it would throw off the loop timing. It would probably be possible to instead just watch for a color change in a pixel at a certain location and respond to that but that's taking the macro to another level of complexity.

I never got around to actually writing the macro though since I'm just way too lazy to go through the trouble and couldn't find a freeware program that would actually do the above. The programs I found that would actually do all that cost $30-$50. So, I guess you could add cheapness to laziness as why I don't macro.