Turned maple lumber nerfed with patch today.

[biohaze]

Was making turned maple lumber with all my scraps I had in bank selling them back to npc vendor and logged out before the normal daily patch and when I logged back in the turned maple is now no-value and can no longer be sold to vendors =/. Nice of them to be sneaky on christmas day to lay down the nerf bat.

[Moonshade]

Um, honestly, would anyone this effects be any happier if they had ended this particular sellback issue yesterday? or tomorrow? or 2 days from next Tuesday? Somehow I doubt it. People that were raking in the free sp, no matter how slowly, won't be anymore. I imagine this hit the other tiers as well, so the people making free gp on turned ash won't be anymore either. I had a feeling this would be coming sooner rather than later. Does it effect me? Sure, I'm a Craftsman. Guess I'll have to actually turn my turned maple into something to have any sellback. Oh well. Does this mean I think that all SOE devs are Scrooges that obviously hate Christmas because they took something away from me that I shouldn't have had in the first place? Nope.

[shamble]

Heh.
I got my craftsman yesterday to level 10. Could turn 1 stack of maple scraps into silver. Oh well.

However, now that they fixed it, could they please make turned maple etc stackable?

[Astarelle]

If I recall correctly you use turned maple lumber to make totums. Those probably still have sell back value.

[Ballet]

Heh.
I got my craftsman yesterday to level 10. Could turn 1 stack of maple scraps into silver. Oh well.

However, now that they fixed it, could they please make turned maple etc stackable?

strongly agreed that about stackable.
wish to see it in the coming big patch

[Maghantah]

Um, honestly, would anyone this effects be any happier if they had ended this particular sellback issue yesterday? or tomorrow? or 2 days from next Tuesday? Somehow I doubt it. People that were raking in the free sp, no matter how slowly, won't be anymore. I imagine this hit the other tiers as well, so the people making free gp on turned ash won't be anymore either. I had a feeling this would be coming sooner rather than later. Does it effect me? Sure, I'm a Craftsman. Guess I'll have to actually turn my turned maple into something to have any sellback. Oh well. Does this mean I think that all SOE devs are Scrooges that obviously hate Christmas because they took something away from me that I shouldn't have had in the first place? Nope.

HMM

If I choose to play the game behind a spinning wheel or forge or whatever, I should be able to make $ just like the equal character out in the wilds killing monsters and selling their scraps and drops to vendors.

As it is the only way that sony is going to allow craftsman to make any money is to sell on broker... but every other adventuring class can get FREE SILVER?GOLD? Etc.... Just by killing a mob.

Therefore by your logic, anyone who is getting drops off of mobs should have their drops nerfed so they cannot sell to vendors at all!

Comments like "People that were raking in the free sp, no matter how slowly, won't be anymore" are ludicrous, uneducated, ignorant and insulting to ANY and ALL tradeskillers.

IMOO

[Rontero]

People that were raking in the free sp, no matter how slowly, won't be anymore.

How is slowly "raking" in silver this way any different than slowly "raking" in silver slaying orcs?

[Korsis]

How is slowly "raking" in silver this way any different than slowly "raking" in silver slaying orcs?

Well, one reason is because this process is much easier to script for money-bots than killing orcs.

A second reason is that you can continue to level up and make money this way without ever leaving a single zone, something you certainly cannot do with orcs.

A third reason is that, using the woodworking table, there is no realistic chance of ever dying and losing xp. Again, not true with orcs.

A fourth reason is that you need no particular equipment or abilities other than what you automatically get to do the woodworking. To be successful at earning money as an orc-killer, you must continuously upgrade both your gear and your abilities.

I have more, but I feel that I've proven my point.

[Rontero]

Well, one reason is because this process is much easier to script for money-bots than killing orcs..

I dont know enough about bots to know what it takes to code one. I do know that I've seen plenty of hunting bots in other games. Making turned maple lumber is alot more complex than "find orc, beat orc dead."

A second reason is that you can continue to level up and make money this way without ever leaving a single zone, something you certainly cannot do with orcs..

I dont know why that is relevent but you can level up in Antonica or CL. The reward goes down for both as you exceed the level of your target. I doubt anyone would be upset if grey recipies no longer gave exp.

A third reason is that, using the woodworking table, there is no realistic chance of ever dying and losing xp. Again, not true with orcs..

No realistic chance for losing exp against orcs either and there is a chance of dying while crafting. Just as much so as fighting orcs if you dont choose your battle/recipe wisely.

A fourth reason is that you need no particular equipment or abilities other than what you automatically get to do the woodworking. To be successful at earning money as an orc-killer, you must continuously upgrade both your gear and your abilities..

This varies by class. Some need lots of gear, some dont need any. Ever heard of a naked mage?

I have more, but I feel that I've proven my point.

I think what you are trying to say is that adventuring is the preferred way to play EQ2. That's pretty much the root of the issue most artisans have with the system.

[Moonshade]

Comments like "People that were raking in the free sp, no matter how slowly, won't be anymore" are ludicrous, uneducated, ignorant and insulting to ANY and ALL tradeskillers.

Um, pardon me, but I was one of those people. Yes I said 'free sp' because it was made off a by-product of my crafting. Everytime I refined lumber, I got scraps, lots of scraps as my lumber refining is almost always pristine. Cool beans, throw in a few stromas for 24cp each and a sandpaper for 6cp and sell the resulting turned maples for 1sp each. Normally from 1 refined maple, I'd end up with what, 6 turned maple? Being uneducated and ignorant, you'll have to pardon my sloppy math skills, but I think you could clear around 5 sp from 1 refined maple if you got all pristines, which isn't very hard to a mid-range craftsman. Now, from killing 1 Orc (or Gnoll in my case) by comparison and selling the resulting loot, if any, might net me 1.5 sp if I'm lucky. Usually you'll get canine saliva which sells for around 24cp. I notice today after this change that I can still sell the maple scraps for 22cp each, so I still get a 44-66cp rebate for each maple I refine. I know of people before this change bragging that they could make over a gold per hour just cranking out turned maple and selling it. I don't know about you, but I've never made a gold per hour adventuring. Sorry, but I stand by my earlier comment, if it insults you, sorry bout that. I'm sure there are still other scams to make easy money that you'll find.

[Wolfysins]

While I certainly wouldn't mind if my byproducts sold for more, I look at it this way.

I make 80% of my cash from tradeskilling. I'm a 24 adventurer and 21 carpenter with 21 alchemist. I spend more time adventuring than tradeskilling, but I sell maple strong boxes for 40-45 silver each and tier 2 spells for 8 silver. If I go adventuring in the right spot, I might make 20-40 silver an hour by winning randoms on stuff that I'm going to sell.

I've sold about 4 adepts plus split the take on a master I -- items I looted while adventuring. I've been reduced to selling to NPCs most of the other types of drops. If I got one, so did 500 other people, and the selling price through the brokers is frequently less than just dumping the item on an NPC.

This is somewhat consistent with EQ1. I made most of my money for a very long time via jewelcraft, making 10-slot backpacks, and providing items for some of the tradeskill quests that came out late in the game. And nightmarewood compound bows made me enough money to buy KEI when it still cost 70k. Jewelcrafting PoValor rings made me enough to buy VoQ.

Tradeskillers can make decent cash. They just have to take the time to sell what they make.

[Unregistered]

I guess I'm not very good at this tradeskilling thing yet because I can consistently make more money by adventuring than through tradeskilling and vendor selling.

I'm currently a 22 Swashbuckler and 23 Alchemist. The best combine I've found for vendor selling is the fungi solutions. They sell for 2s and you can usually buy the raws on the broker between 2c-60c. I can make about 60/hour assuming I can get that many from the broker. Average net per combine is 1.5 silver. So about 90 silver per hour.

Soloing in thundering steppes the common drops sell for 1.7s, rare drops for 17s, and chest drops for 14s. If I concentrate on hunting and not harvesting I clear about 1 gold per hour there.

Not a huge difference but I definately am pulling in more money as an adventurerer than tradeskiller.

[Moonshade]

Unreg: I can see that from a tier 3 area. I was talking about tier 2 in my post above. 1gp per hour (based on other players claims) by churning out turned maple, opposed to Antonica drops, which even the chest drops only sell for about 4sp. Of course before the Xmas patch, turned ash was making quite a bit more wasn't it? Wasn't it 15-16sp per? Something along those lines. So then you'd be up to around 90sp per refined ash (minus costs for liquids), with all pristines. Talk about a money-machine eh? I guess the whole point comes down to risk vs. reward. Should the adventurers generally make more money because they assume more risk overall? Personally, I view crafting much as I did in EQ1; a fun, sideline activity that can help break up the monotony that adventuring alone can turn into.

[Wolfysins]

Unreg, that's because you're trying to make money by reselling to vendors. SOE has repeatedly said that's not how they expect tradeskillers to make money. They want you to make goods that are valued by other players. If you made neolith, thlakoid, and dye, you could sell them for more than 2s each.

In my example earlier, I mentioned maple strong boxes. They sell for 35-45 silver on Najena.

As an alchemist, you can make App IIIs. I made one of every tier 2 app 3 spell and all but about 10 of them have sold at 8 silver.

But ultimately, SOE has clearly indicated they expect tradeskills to be supplemental to adventuring, not in lieu of. Yes, you CAN be strictly a tradeskiller, but your game experience will not be as enriching as if you adventure.

[Unregistered]

Actually I looked into the Neolith, Thykaloid route and the raws sell for around 4 silver and the resins etc. sell for 1.5s on Permafrost. Assuming you get pristine you net 4 resins and resell on broker for 6s total. For a net of the same 2s but now you're introducing broker sales which are much slower than vendor sales.

Not to mention the unused raws like poison oak, garlic, hyacinth et al are much more available on the broker than Belladonna, Ash, Gold, Carbonite, etc. and the nodes are also harvested less frequently so it's easier to harvest up your own stacks of those rather than the weed & rock nodes that everyone sprints for.

[Korsis]

I dont know enough about bots to know what it takes to code one. I do know that I've seen plenty of hunting bots in other games. Making turned maple lumber is alot more complex than "find orc, beat orc dead."

Well speaking as someone who does computer programming for a living and does know a good deal about bots, I can tell you with absolute certainty that a hunting bot is substantially more complex than a turned maple bot.

I dont know why that is relevent but you can level up in Antonica or CL. The reward goes down for both as you exceed the level of your target. I doubt anyone would be upset if grey recipies no longer gave exp.

It is relevant because travel time and learning new areas are difficulties that tradeskillers do not need to consider.

No realistic chance for losing exp against orcs either and there is a chance of dying while crafting. Just as much so as fighting orcs if you dont choose your battle/recipe wisely.

I didn't say while crafting, I said while woodworking. The forge is quite dangerous. But I have never heard of anyone dying at the woodworking table. I suppose it is possible, but it would require some incredible luck with getting the right major failures repeatedly, and either intentionally missing all of them or being totally afk.

If you think there is no realistic chance of dying while adventuring, well, I would beg to differ.

This varies by class. Some need lots of gear, some dont need any. Ever heard of a naked mage?

A naked mage, yes. A naked mage in EQ2 higher than level 20 that solos efficiently naked? No.

I think what you are trying to say is that adventuring is the preferred way to play EQ2. That's pretty much the root of the issue most artisans have with the system.

What I was trying to communicate is that adventuring and artisaning are different. You asked how making money with turned lumber was different from adventuring. I gave several points on which I felt they differed significantly.

Secondarily, I was indicating that because making money using turned lumber is not a parallel concept to making money while adventuring, they do not need to be directly balanced with one another, and the rewards for each should not necessarily be the same. In particular, since adventurers killing monsters IS one of their primary objectives, and sell back to vendors is NOT one of artisans' primary objectives, it stands to reason that adventurers killing monsters should make better profit than artisans doing turned lumber vendor sell back.

[Rontero]

It is relevant because travel time and learning new areas are difficulties that tradeskillers do not need to consider..

You know this is just plain not true. There are plenty of pitfalls and timesinks associated with tradeskilling and there are those with adventuring. There is as much discovery with tradeskilling as there is with adventuring. It's not like the recipes and results are printed on the walls of the dungeon. You can go to spoiler sites for adventuring as well as tradeskills. If you dont then you have to actually make a pristine rawhide backpack to know that it is a 6 slot 10% weight reducing item. Before that, you have no idea what you will get.

What I was trying to communicate is that adventuring and artisaning are different. You asked how making money with turned lumber was different from adventuring. I gave several points on which I felt they differed significantly.

Secondarily, I was indicating that because making money using turned lumber is not a parallel concept to making money while adventuring, they do not need to be directly balanced with one another, and the rewards for each should not necessarily be the same. In particular, since adventurers killing monsters IS one of their primary objectives, and sell back to vendors is NOT one of artisans' primary objectives, it stands to reason that adventurers killing monsters should make better profit than artisans doing turned lumber vendor sell back.

No they dont have to be directly balanced. So why does the balance always need to go in favor of adventuring?

The fact is turned maple wasnt the huge moneymaker everyone thinks it was. I took particular exception to those who think anyone is "raking in silver" making turned lumber. Maybe slaying orcs is a little slower but not much and the bonus is that adventuring or just about anything beats turning lumber in the fun dept.

As far as bots go, that is a problem for SOE CS. Anything can be botted if turning maple can so they need to keep that under control not by changing the game. A bot is a bot. If nobody is at the keyboard then the bot wins no matter what you program it to do.

[Rontero]

Normally from 1 refined maple, I'd end up with what, 6 turned maple? Being uneducated and ignorant, you'll have to pardon my sloppy math skills, but I think you could clear around 5 sp from 1 refined maple if you got all pristines, which isn't very hard to a mid-range craftsman. Now, from killing 1 Orc (or Gnoll in my case) by comparison and selling the resulting loot, if any, might net me 1.5 sp if I'm lucky.

Your math skills are off a bit. You have to do two pristing combines to make the 5 silver. It isnt exactly fast. And dont forget that you need to refine the maple too. As far as time goes, you can definitely kill orcs faster. You wont make as much dough but you will get alot more exp and killing orcs is tons more fun than turning lumber.

Here is the reality of the situation. Do wholesaler tasks if you want to make easy money. The turned lumber thing was a nice return for time but nothing compared to the millions of other things you can do to make much more money much much quicker.

You are right though. 33cp for a wasted leftover is still OK for me. (I get 33cp for each scrap unless they lowered it again after the xmas patch.)

[Rkasha]

When I saw the patch message, I immediate checked turned maple because I figured that's what they nerfed. However, according to the patch message, the reason for nerfing seems confusing to me. They make turned maple no-value? Why? Most of the interim products (like planed lumber) have a value to the merchants. Granted, it's not much, but it's still a value. So why not just lower the value of turned maple to something more appropriate? Like 12 copper or something. (Just guessing a value.) Anyway, lowering the sell back price seems more inline with the prices of other interim products.

Oh, and as a side note the maple scraps still have value to the merchants. I don't understand why scraps are are higher value than turned maple. Both aren't a "finished" product.

-=Rkasha=-

[Wolfysins]

Guys, they've stated things quite simply -- they don't want tradeskillers to make money by selling to vendors. Period. If you want to make money as a tradeskiller, you have to sell to other people.

That's how it was in EQ1. Any time someone found a recipe that could make money, they'd nerf the sellback. We all knew they were doing it, so we shouldn't be surprised when they carry that forward.

You may think you should be able to make money selling to vendors. And we would all certainly like to get more money from our goods. But they've stated it very very clearly.

If you want to make money as a tradeskiller, you need to sell your goods to players, not the NPC merchants.

And for what it's worth, I make good money selling items to players. Maple strong boxes by my carpenter and App 3s by my scholar have netted me more money than adventuring has.

[archi]

Just make some pegs, for some cash or exps. 1sp for peg while Prestine maple lumber sells for 50cp. And pegs are stackable, quality does not matters in selling price.

Guess gonna grind some trade skills to get my slacker up to level 15 craftmen to increase my bank slots.


Archi

[Tatianya]

I like the idea of selling to other players. But what gets me is all I hear that craftsman are selling is maple strong boxes. I have 467 recipes and only 1 is ever considered sellable for any profit, maple strong boxes. "Don't make turned maple, sell maple strong boxes to others". It's nice to have all those recipes but honestly, how many of them are actually profitable?

Granted, my adventuring pays for my dabbling in tradeskills as a secondary pursuit. The most valuable thing I have in EQ2 is my time so I want that to mean something in the end (for what it's worth). Selling to others seems to be way too hard and time consuming for the amount of money you gain over selling quickly to a vendor. I sell at a loss to a vendor for no other reason then time. I think that alot of others like the quick rewards (such as turned maple was) because of the quick reward for effort. It also appears that Sony wants this to be in "inter-active" game, not just a solo experience; hence, selling to others is the only profitable means. If you don't want to make contacts ingame or "virtually" meet other people to push your wares, then there aren't many options left to you for making a profit. Everyone has their own ideas of what they want out of the game and EQ2 gives you a vast array of ways to experience that. Adventuring and tradeskilling aren't placed in the same realms for profitability, perhaps due to time, effort, or interactivity with others, who knows?

Oopps, sorry, went way off on a tangent there. :D

[Rkasha]

Guys, they've stated things quite simply -- they don't want tradeskillers to make money by selling to vendors.

I hear you Wolfysins. That's why the end product of other recipes sell back to the vendor for less than the subcomponents. All I'm saying is why don't they make turned maple the same? I understand that it used to sell for a silver - fine, that's too much. So lower the price to something "useless" like 10 copper and then it will conform to the other recipes. As it stands right now the turned maple is flagged as "NO VALUE". And why is that? I think it's a matter that SOE didn't want to take time to assess a proper value for turned maple lumber. So instead of lowering it, they flagged it as no value. (Quite drastic if you ask me, but I'm only guessing - I don't really know for sure why SOE made it no value.) I would like to see it changed. I've personally never sold turned maple to a vendor, but I would like to see some consistency. :D As it stands I sell my maple scraps back to the vendor.