boggle..can't make iron chain links??!!

[Rendael "Lloru" Brigh]

I would like to know why in the world of Norrath v 2.0 SCHOLARS make iron chain links and not those in the metal working fields??

In EQ1 and in REAL LIFE, smiths make chain links for the armor.

I'm all for buying the eolith tempers, etc from the appropriate people, but having the 'wrong' classes make an item is utterly stupid.

[Graal]

Scholars get all the finesse metalworking like chains, studs, struts etc. Whether thats the wrong class for them or not is a matter of opinion. I suppose you can jump on the "I HATE interdependency!1!" Bandwagon if it really bothers you.

[Goonie]

Naw, I dont think he is complaining about that. He is just saying it doesnt make since. Ill try to put it into perspective in a real world setting. I may be off.

Smiths can make the metal used in metal projects. (i.e. metal sheets, bars, large pieces of metal) then metal workers (welders) shape it into objects. I am guessing SOE is making the scholars like welders in this instance?

[Oaga]

Im all for the interdepencey thing BUT!

I think any type of crafter you should be able to make the primary component in any of your finished products.

Oaga
23 Monk
19 Outfitter
Permafrost

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

I would like to know why in the world of Norrath v 2.0 SCHOLARS make iron chain links and not those in the metal working fields??

In EQ1 and in REAL LIFE, smiths make chain links for the armor.Small correction. In EQ 2 OUTFITTERS make the iron rings for ARMOR. Scholars make iron chains for furniture (like chandeliers) and chain weapons (like flails).

Outfitters and then armormsmiths have the recipes for the appropriate metal rings to make armor with.

I never once needed to go to anyone for iron rings making armor as an outfitter on my way to weaponsmith and I made at least 4-5 full suits of iron chainmail in that time for myself and guildmates/customers.

[Goonie]

Small correction. In EQ 2 OUTFITTERS make the iron rings for ARMOR. Scholars make iron chains for furniture (like chandeliers) and chain weapons (like flails).

Outfitters and then armormsmiths have the recipes for the appropriate metal rings to make armor with.

I never once needed to go to anyone for iron rings making armor as an outfitter on my way to weaponsmith and I made at least 4-4 full suits of iron chainmail in that time for myself and guildmates/customers.
Yup, I agree here. My post above was addressing things like iron buckles, which are made by scholars. But you are absolutely correct, outfitters do make the primary components for their armors.

[Rendael "Lloru" Brigh]

Chain links are made through the scholar book 10 hence my comment.

[Moonshade]

Chain links are made through the scholar book 10 hence my comment.

I think you missed Gil's post above. Chain links are not a primary component for armor, Iron rings are, which you make. Chain links are a detail item that falls under scholar and eventually jeweler.

[Rendael "Lloru" Brigh]

Are you saying that I can make an iron flail all by myself except for the temper then?

I can make the tanned hilt of course.

[Moonshade]

I don't know off the top of my head about the flail, but I know there are some weapons that can be made but for the liquids. Plus I make my own tier 2 chain armor by myself but for the burlap pattern, that a craftsman makes, and of course the tempers.

[Elyana]

Crafters make the wooden staves used in flails as I recall =). Also it does sort of make sense that scholars are doing the fine metalwork, if you consider that they are the jewelcrafters.

[Rendael "Lloru" Brigh]

Well it doesn't make sense to me since I am thinking real world here.

I guess I should stop thinking REAL LIFE then.

[Moonshade]

Here's the first RL analogy I can think of. Think about the show American Chopper. They design and build these ultra cool bikes and fabricate a lot of the metal themselves. But they send out the very specialized items, like custom oil pumps, carburators, etc. to specialists, then do the final assemble back at the shop again. Now in game, you make everything for an iron sword, for example, but the pommel. Consider the pommel the fancy detail work that takes more of an artsy touch of a jeweler. He gives you the fancy pommel and you do the final assemble. There's one example anywho. :)

[Durgrok]

Stop it! Stop it! Stop making sense! UNghghgh!! Bad thoughts, out of brain, brain hurts, nooo!

[Elyana]

OMG I love that show Moonshade. Almost makes me want to get a chopper! The dad and Jr crack me up =) You see the copper plated bike they made for the statue of liberty memorial? SAAAWEEET!

[Goonie]

Yup, the Liberty Bike was nice. They also made the bike for I, Robot. Ultra Cool. And the President of TrimSpa got his bike from them as well. His had a rocket on it.

[Owwie]

I have the same issue and have since made an alchemist alt in order to be an Outfitter.

It looks like Sony has designed the three branches of tradeskillers to be weighted as such:
----------
Scholars->Other Tradeskillers
\>Adventurer Consumers

Outfitters->Adventurer Consumers

Craftsmen-> Adventurer Consumers
(of course there are other interdependencies, but the MAIN emphasis will be shown below)
-----------

By Tier2 it's very apparent Scholars play a pivotal role that is most strongly felt by Outfitters. The fact that studs, struts, buckles and the like are Runecraft/Scholar, added with Scholar tempers, washes and resins makes an insane amount of interdepency on Scholars for Outfitters.

The part that gets to me is- this would be balanced if Scholars DIDN'T get their own, special form of xxxBar recipes that also use Runecraft! Even Scholar interdependencies on Outfitters have a Wash/Resin inter-interdependency back at them.

Example- a Scholar needs Burlap Cloth for XYZ recipes. The requesting Scholar has to provide me washes and resins so I can make these for them. I need Studs, Buckles and Struts from Scholars. They can make Pristine Bars and all the tempers for them without me and are 100% self-sufficient in providing my supplies since they have custom, special recipes that use Runecraft for the same metal shaping/working recipes Outfitters get.

Looking at a tier-2 example specifically to be more illustrative:
Scholars can 100% make pristine tempers, resins, washes as well as 100% make pristine Iron Bars, Iron Studs, Iron Buckles, Iron Struts that Outfitters need.

Outfitters cannot make anything 100% for Scholars in return. We are interdependent upon them for OUR supplies, as well as interdependent upon them for THEIR supplies.

If you want to balance Scholars, then these kludged special recipes should be removed. If a Scholar wants Outfitter-line goods, he/she has to provide me the tempers/washes or resins and we have a great business relationship. If I need studs, buckles, struts and other runecraft items, I should then have to provide Pristine Bars to keep the relationship balanced. As it stands right now, they can pump out pristine studs, buckles and struts as they have been "gifted" a special version of Runecraft bar recipes to match Outfitter's Metal recipes of the same items.

[TrioOfTrinkets]

I've also noticed while looking (and granted with my crafting levels it hasn't been THAT long) that both Outfitters AND Craftsmen get the iron bar recipe. Not sure if this was intended or not. As I think, I can't think of anything the craftsman needs the iron bar for directly, just the end results.

Anyhow, this all makes sense:
Main metal smith makes the bulk sized and heavy duty products
Scholars (more towards the jewelcraft side anyhow) make all the little intricate details of sculpting and forming. It does make sense regardless og how inconvenient it can be at times.

The Trio of Trinketeers

[Owwie]

I've also noticed while looking (and granted with my crafting levels it hasn't been THAT long) that both Outfitters AND Craftsmen get the iron bar recipe. Not sure if this was intended or not. As I think, I can't think of anything the craftsman needs the iron bar for directly, just the end results.
Do you know if Craftsman get a "special" version of the Iron Bar recipe? One that say uses Woodworking or the like? I'm going to have to look when the servers finally come back up on my Craftsman...

Whether or not a certain class gets the Bar recipes isn't such an issue- it's an issue if they get a "special" version of it that allows them to use their Tier 2+ spells to guarantee Pristine.

A cross-example of the same thing would be if Outfitters got the Eiolith, Stroma recipes that used metalworking or Tailoring skill in order to ensure Pristine (i.e. Tier2+ spells that alter durability vs. power/sucess). We dont not only get the recipe, but we also don't get a "special" altered version of it.

Outfitters already DO get buckle, stud and strut recipes so we can cross our fingers and blow through Power trying to hope for the magic dice-rolls to Pristine these as we have no Runecraft spells to shift Durability (just Tier1 Runecraft spells).. and also a very low capped Runecraft skill.

Scholars get a special version that allow them to trivialize the process by making metalworking/shaping recipes (i.e. Iron bars) to suddenly have Runecraft versions just for them.

Hey, if a Scholar wants to blow through their power trying to make Pristine Iron Bars because their metal shaping is capped at 55 (or whatever) and have no durability altering spells, be my guest... but they dont. The problem is Outfitters get no such cross-ability AND do not get their recipes either (by designt.. bugs/loopholes pending *nudge*).

[Marionette]

You can as easily complain that mages (specifically summoners and enchanters) get an unfair benefit because they have spells to enhance their power pool. It really doesn't matter. Do what you do because you like doing it. If you don't like doing it, go do something else.

[Korsis]

Well it doesn't make sense to me since I am thinking real world here.

I guess I should stop thinking REAL LIFE then.

It makes perfect sense in real life.

The iron chain links is used in jewelry. Think of the chain of a necklace. A burly medieval smith has neither the patience nor the tools to make something like that. For that you'd go to the white haired guy across town with scales and a magnifying glass that can bend tiny wires of metal into fancy shapes for you. The smith can make big thick rings that'll keep a sword out of your belly.