Regen benefits to a group (why provisioners are almost useless right now)

[Dafydd]

Regen benefits to a group & why provisioners are almost useless right now.

I wrote this in another thread but thought it was worth starting its own thread about.

Right now Teir 2 Coffee from an NPC is 26cp.


Take a Team level 25 to 34 our doing EXP grind/hunting. Assume that on the average pull the y all use ~70% of their power.

A - If they are drinkinf Summoned Water they will be down for about 15 Tics between pulls.

B - If they drink 26cp Coffee they will be down for about 8 Tics between pulls this saves about 40 seconds and will result in ~ 15% more exp per hour at a cost of only ~26cp per hour.

C - If they all drink Teir 3 Drinks they will only be down about 6 Tics between pulls. This only comes to ~ +1.5% to 2% more exp per hour over the 26cp coffee.

However If the Cleric and main tank are buring through their Power pools significanlt faster than the rest of the group (This is often the case) then it is worth while for the healer to drink higher level drink.


Now from an economical perspective if players can increase exp at +15% for a cost of 26cp per hour then what can we price drink what will only put them to +17% exp per hour.

Now pre nerf and pre level 10 Societies Teir 2 drinks sold to NPC's for 1sp and Teir 3 for 4sp. This I agree was slightly high... but when your looking at a level 25 or 28 adventure increasing his hunting rate by +15% that means +15% more loot per hour and with crafted drinks lasting 75 min then you see that a level 24 is only paying about 80cp per hour for that +15% looting and exp. I think this was a fairly good deal.. Level 35 players paying about 3.5sp per hour for Teir 3 drinks ... this I also feel was worth their money.


Now part of the problem was that provisioners could make that much selling to NPC's and thus did not want to sell to the players. I don't have a problem with how low they dropped the NPC buy back price (i think it was a little drastic but not so bad) What is really wrong is that NPC's are selling Teir 2 Drink SO CHEEP!!!.

A provisioner has to be 25+ to sell Tier 3 drinks and Thats the only way a provisioner can make ANY profit at all right now... and as i proved in the above example unless your ripping off fools they only people who need Tier 3 + drink are the limited number of 30+ Healers (many of which say they will just summon drink and the group can exp at their regen rate... or justifiably so they are happy with the Tier 2 drinks.)

I know this post may be considered partly a rant but I think its a good Info post. So hope it doesn't get reloacted.

[Goonie]

Dang number-cruncher!!
Good points made here, do you do this for a living? :D

[Velkorban]

A provisioner has to be 25+ to sell Tier 3 drinks and Thats the only way a provisioner can make ANY profit at all right now...

I may be wrong, but I beg to differ. I was 24 when I started making tequilla out of blue succulents, and then making Rainstorms from tequilla and salt. Thats 2 tier 3 drinks at 24, along with big fayberry, but you cant make that becuase you cant make fayberry juice quite yet.

:) but awsome numbers and I am very unhappy about level 10 societies selling tier 2 food/drink.

[vae]

i hate u number crunchers lol, making it hard to decide between being a prov or a woodie!

/hides back down in the basement making coffee and orange juice to put off the decision until exp hits 223%

[Blytz]

The societies are not selling final products though, they are selling interims. The patch due tomorrow "should" fix this as interim products are not intended to give the same benefits are final products. All provisioners need to be aware of this too - you will no longer be able to just combine water, coal and XX raw resource to make a fully beneficial drink or food. This applies at all levels, for example 1- refine coffee 2- make coffee 3- make creamed coffee.

Therefore the so-called threat from trade societies isn't there except for those people who truly can't afford to buy anything.

The lack of education for players regarding the crafted food and drinks is the big issue. Again, the hope is the next patch will fix this by displaying the benefits of individual food and drink on the items. Some players have worked this out and those that have are laughing to themselves. They are also the frustrated ones in group who get upset that other players aren't using crafted stuff as it slows down the hunt (due to regen time).

My alt is the provisioner (lvl35 completed tonight on tier 4 fish :) ), my main harvests for him. I dare not mention to many people that he exists, as when I have the orders have been overwhelming!

What we have to have is multiple products per craft though.

[Dafydd]

This applies at all levels, for example 1- refine coffee 2- make coffee 3- make creamed coffee.
.

I see and understand what your saying... but it is plain stupid to make "Coffee" and "Orange Juice" un drinkable and lable them Interum items. Yes they are components for Orange Beer and Creamed Coffee but not being able to drink your coffee Black and making refreshing Orange Juice worthless is very stupid IMHO.


Oh and one more thing.
Tell the Japanese that they can't eat their fish Raw any more and that their fish has to be cooked/processed twice now before they can eat it.

Fresh Sunfish -> Sunfish Steak -> Sunfish Jerky
Fresh Sunfish -> Sunfish Steak -> Sunfish Casserole

Just something funny I was thinking.

[Goonie]

I see and understand what your saying... but it is plain stupid to make "Coffee" and "Orange Juice" un drinkable and lable them Interum items. Yes they are components for Orange Beer and Creamed Coffee but not being able to drink your coffee Black and making refreshing Orange Juice worthless is very stupid IMHO.

I think this is great for provisioners tho. Cant you still make the oj and coffee and it has the full benefits? If that is true, your market to players is open again and the items sold on vendor are just used for subcomponents.
At least, this is my view on the situation.

[Serenya]

Only if the items on the vendor change so they aren't "homemade". If they are identical to what we can make, then either they can replace them for sales to adventurers, or these two 'interim' items become worthless to adventurers. I am ambivalent -- these are the first drink recipes for each tier, and midway through the tiers at that. I hate to think of having to be almost out of a given tier before being able to make drinks for my own use, that of my guildmates, or to sell, but right now I might just as well buy from the vendor....

[Dafydd]

Like she/he just said. Within each Tier your first ~4 levels of items are all usable in higher level combines. This so called wonderfull proposal would make as explained it impossible to make a truely Finished product untill the very high end of each Teir.

A second problem is can they truely justify a level 14 item or 24 item as being a usefull as a 19 or 29 Item?

**** Pause ****
Did a little research quick and confiremd that there are no Teir 2 Recipies a Level 10 to 14 Provisioner can make that is not usable as a subcombine for a higher level food.

**** Pause ****

And nothing a level 20 to 23 Provisioner can make and sell. That means unless you make ~1,000 green Items and sell them in broker mode.... A Provisioner can do nothing but loose money from levels 20 to 24.

[Ariadne]

or make money from workshop tasks.

I've made 25 gold so far from tier 3 workshop tasks. How can people NOT make money on them?

1g44s for 10 shaped combines.. this certainly funds the next few levels where I'm not going to be able to sell to players..

[Hawek]

were you getting Tradeskill Tasks that were appropriate to your class that you choose or were you getting anything?

thanks,

Hawek

[Tsunare]

yeah, i've been doing the tasks, but they slow down your exp, grinding my way to 30 now ;)

[Oakraven]

their are a few changes announced, namly finished traidskill foods are being pulled from vendors, and they are upping the duration of upper end combines in each tier.

[Ariadne]

were you getting Tradeskill Tasks that were appropriate to your class that you choose or were you getting anything?

thanks,

Hawek

I got tasks completely appropriately. All cooking tasks, of approximately the level (or occasionally one level below) my current level. No complaints here!

[Tsunare]

were you getting Tradeskill Tasks that were appropriate to your class that you choose or were you getting anything?

I didn't start getting food ones until 24, but afterwards it was all food tasks

[Dafydd]

I got tasks completely appropriately. All cooking tasks, of approximately the level (or occasionally one level below) my current level. No complaints here!

I must agree with you Ariadne. I don't see this thread (my origional post) as a complaint. Nor was I trying to complain about dificulty in making money.

I was pointing out that the current Vendor sold Teir 2 drinks made Provisioners simi useless to the majority of the current population. Current because most adventures right now are in the 20 to 35 range. Where Teir 2 drinks should be their primary staple.

YEs provisioners can mage good money. Provisioners are still good for the high end players. And as I pointed out in another thred I feel that Sony will fix things and provisioners will be usefull in the long run.

I also pointed out that During the current situation I have been refering players needing drinks to the NPC's for their 26cp Coffee. I pointed out that we (anyone) could be making a really good profit selling vendor Coffee to players but that liong term these players would realize they got ripped off by (whoever did this) during the transitional period.

Anyway on a very last point this thread needs to be closed as soon as the next patch comes out.

*** Tradeskills & Societies ***
- Player-crafted food and drink durations have been adjusted.
- Edible refined components were removed from tradeskill vendors.


So things are being straightened out. This thread was only relevant to this current phase we have been going through.

[Felonna]

After level 20 the difference in regen between summoned drink and crafted tier 3 is so large my friends complain loudly if i forget to drink my own beverages. Down time goes way up while waiting for my power, which is vital becuase I'm always the group healer.

With any luck more people will realize the value after the stats are shown clearly on our products.

[JuneauCB]

All the proposed changes still don't address the issue that you can buy Tier 3, Tier 4, and even Tier 5 provisions from NPC vendors for coppers and silvers. There will never be a healthy market for player-made provisions as long as you can buy unlimited supplies of Tier 3 provisions at 77 copper each. Merchants in Nektulos Forest and Thundering Steppes sell Tier 3 provisions for 1 silver 4 copper each, making it easier for a player on the road to buy from them than from a player Merchant way back in Freeport or Qeynos.

That NPC sell lower quality provisions is nothing new to the tradeskill market. They do this as well for all other crafts. However, player-made items are clearly superior to NPC-sold items in other cases. The only difference between our provisions and NPC provisions is duration, which is a poor factor to distinguish our products, because when people die, their food and drink effects go away.

We're not alone in this problem. It isn't readily apparent to players what potions or poisons do, and there's no way to tell how much more upkeep a player-made piece of furniture will save you versus NPC-sold furniture, just to give a couple examples.

[Ungoliath]

If you do a quick test and compare regen on the tea/coffee available from the tradeskill instances and compare that with what you make, you'll see that the stuff you make offers significantly better regen and is thus pretty worthwhile in my humble opinion.

[Serenya]

I did Ungoliath, and that is not the case. The white tea from the wholesaler was the same as the white tea I made, and the antonican coffee from the wholesaler was identical to the same antonican coffee made by me (stacked even), so long as I compared the same quality (and quality impacts duration, not regen).

Now, if you meant compare it to a tier 3 drink, sure, but the point being made here was that as the wholesalers continued to level they would remove that difference. Luckily, on test they have removed these from the wholesaler entirely.