Another cooking problem to /bug

[Herculez]

I have been leveling my craftsman with the eventual plan on becoming a provisioner. Decided to try a cooking tradeskill society task if i could get one, and got one on my first try. I was assigned to make 10 chilled orange milk, a skill 15 recipe which was fine, since i was a skill 15. However, the final combo requires orange juice, which is a skill 16 combo, making it impossible to fill this order. I know i can always just get a new order, but i feel that if it is possible to occur once, it can occur again with other recipes. So if anyone gets a chance, please /bug this so it wont be a problem for forture crafters.

[Dreadalus]

I predict that you'll have a stroke when you get to 20+ as a provisioner. It's totally insane how many recipes rely on higher level subcombines. If it weren't for adding Blue Succulents, I'd still be waiting to make a Tier 3 drink at 24...

[Dafydd]

Its not a bug. Its designed that way, they want you to buy the OJ from another player.

Read the new fine print about trade skilling. Your not suppose to make money unless your selling to a player. Anything else you do is suppose to cost you money I believe their exact words were (able to recoop a portion of the cost of tradeskilling).

[Korsis]

Its not a bug. Its designed that way, they want you to buy the OJ from another player.

That's absurd. Can anyone who was in beta shed some light on the devs' reasoning (or lack thereof) on this matter? Surely this can't be how they actually intend it. Relying on other classes is one thing, but being forced to rely on higher level people in your own class?

So you're saying that the first provisioner in each city, on every server, is intended to grind away on lower level combines because he or she can't make interim components?

Even ignoring that, how ridiculous would it be if weaponsmiths learned to make complete weapons first, then edges a few levels later, then bars a few levels after that. It makes no sense. Interim components are less complicated, and should be lower level combines.

[MLE]

Its not a bug. Its designed that way, they want you to buy the OJ from another player.

Read the new fine print about trade skilling. Your not suppose to make money unless your selling to a player. Anything else you do is suppose to cost you money I believe their exact words were (able to recoop a portion of the cost of tradeskilling).

I don't think it's a bug either, but I don't think such a strict interpretation of the trade skilling fine print is in order, either. If it was, the implication would be that wholesaler "bring me back 15" quests are INTENDED to be purchased from other players. I think that it's a stretch to imply that there should be no other form of coin generation for tradeskillers than PC sales.

[Herculez]

The system is designed for people to be able to make a profit without relying on other players. No matter what you say dafydd that is how it was intended by the designers. You have already been blasted in armorer forum when you said that the system was working as intended that carbonite rings use the metal working skill which belongs to weaponsmiths but you failed to research the fact that weaponsmiths dont get the recipie, only armorers who use metalshaping. The devs have stated on several occasions that the armor/weaponsmith thing is a bug, and i have peitioned this and go the response that it IS a bug. Having to make interums that are harder than the finish is a miscode that is going to take a long time to fix, but just because it hasnt been fixed yet does not mean it is working as intended.

[Dafydd]

The system is designed for people to be able to make a profit without relying on other players. No matter what you say dafydd that is how it was intended by the designers. You have already been blasted in armorer forum when you said that the system was working as intended that carbonite rings use the metal working skill which belongs to weaponsmiths but you failed to research the fact that weaponsmiths dont get the recipie, only armorers who use metalshaping. The devs have stated on several occasions that the armor/weaponsmith thing is a bug, and i have peitioned this and go the response that it IS a bug. Having to make interums that are harder than the finish is a miscode that is going to take a long time to fix, but just because it hasnt been fixed yet does not mean it is working as intended.
You are right that my research was incomplete. But you forget that I did change my opinion in the Armor forums as soon as I fully understood the problem. And yes there is currently problems with Armorors aquiring Pristine Plates. However I still feel that it is very likely that the solution will be to add the plate recipie to the Weapons smiths books. If you read my post I said that i felt it was intended for for the Armor smith to aquire their pristine plates from weapon smiths just like Carpenters must aquire their pristine lumber from wood workers.

Now you say
No matter what you say dafydd that is how it was intended by the designers.

This is what Moorgard posted officially!
We didn't intend for artisans to see selling to NPCs as a means of earning a profit. Selling products to an NPC should allow you to recoup most of your costs, but the artisan's goal should be to earn money by selling goods to other players. Tradeskill society tasks provide an additional means for crafters to subsidize their work and gain experience and faction through their efforts.


Selling products to an NPC should allow you to recoup most of your costs,
Recoup most of your cost = Most of cost means you will loose money.

Tradeskill society tasks provide an additional means for crafters to subsidize their work and gain experience and faction through their efforts.
Subsidize our work. Again this is not profit. most of the recipies that the societies ask for us to make cost us more to make than the reward. In some cases you do make a SMALL amount of coin. But these few and far between profitable tasks are not nearly enough profit to cover the cost or loss that we currently incur trying to level up.

Right now one of the FEW ways ti make any money at all in the game as a trade skiller is to sell to adventures. or sell the very limited sub components used to make items that are being sold to adventurers.

[Herculez]

Yes, i agree, selling to NPC vendors to net a profit is wrong, but that isnt what im truly complaining about. Maybe there was a misunderstanding from the orginal post, so here is some clarification. I am not saying that it is wrong to make players use ingredients produced at a higher crafting level to produce an item at a lower lvl such as my original example of needing a lvl 16 orange juice to make a lvl 15 finish product. What im am saying is the bug is that this particular recipe was assigned to me at the tradeskill society. Going along with your research, the devs have also stated that it was intended that players could complete wholesaler and tradeskill society tasks as an alternate profit source, though not as much as you would gain from the PC market. What i am wanting players to /bug is that tradeskill societies are handing out tasks that are "impossible" to complete without a large amount of assistance from the tradeskill community, which eliminates or greatly reduces the profit from doing these tasks. All i am after is that the quest npc's hand out writs that are completly within the lvl range of the crafter to complete. Now i know you must buy ingredients from others especially for tier 2+ crafting, but you should not be required to create items that use ingredients provided by someone of your own class that is significantly higher in lvl or to use items that are so much higher than your own skill that the cost makes the task useless. All im asking is that everyone think about the problem for a moment, and if they feel it is a bug then /bug it, if not then dont worry about it. If it is a bug, then the only way the devs will learn about it is from concerned players. If it isnt a bug then the devs will let the community know that the system is working as intended. Until such a time though, i think it is best to look at tradeskill systems very closely, as it is up to the tradeskill community to let the devs know what we believe could be a bug.

[Dafydd]

Well Herculez, I agree with most all that you have said but I do think they mixed up a lot of the recipies such as the one you gave an example too. But I think it was done on purpose.

The reason I think they did this on purpose with provisioner recipies is because the provisioner in general is pretty self sufficient.

The problem you mention is seen to a much greater extent in Tier Three.

Levels 20 to 24 over half of the new recipies that you get will require sub combines that you can not make. I am failry certain that this also hold true for the Teir 4 and 5 levels as well.

P.S. Sorry if I came off strong, but I am fairly upset with Sony these last few days.

[Elyana]

That's absurd. Can anyone who was in beta shed some light on the devs' reasoning (or lack thereof) on this matter? Surely this can't be how they actually intend it. Relying on other classes is one thing, but being forced to rely on higher level people in your own class?

So you're saying that the first provisioner in each city, on every server, is intended to grind away on lower level combines because he or she can't make interim components?

Even ignoring that, how ridiculous would it be if weaponsmiths learned to make complete weapons first, then edges a few levels later, then bars a few levels after that. It makes no sense. Interim components are less complicated, and should be lower level combines.


Welp they didn't add provisioner recipes until the last few weeks of beta. I personally tested them and bugged them up through and including lvl 19. I also bugged this issue. I personally feel they were rushed and didnt verify recipes.

The best thing you can do is create a list by BOOK of the recipes dependant on higher BOOK recipes. Submit that to the dev team vs feedback or bug, AND on the EQ2 provisioner forum. Make sure that it is only a presentation of data, not a slam the devs fest, and I am sure they will respond.. especially if you get a bunch of other provisioners also responding to the thread rationally and calmly.

Make sure to note that this is the only profession which has these issues.

[Herculez]

Dont get me wrong, EQ2 is a great game and well constructed. But lets face it, the entire game is full of one bug after another and tradeskills were the last and least thing looked at in beta. It is my opinion that everything i see that 'seems' wrong, could possibly be. I agree that provisoners are pretty self sufficent and should therefore have a harder time with the items they need to cook. But i cant help but think that if it looks broke, i probally could be. That is why i was concerned with this potential problem. I have no doubt that recipes needing ingredients that are higher skill is as intended, sometimes it even makes sense from a RL cooking standpoint. My only problem with the system is that the tasks given to you can be some of these that require items higher than the finish. Tasks arent just for advancing the society, but to make a little profit for those who cant sell to others. As a armorer, i can make money as i need it, but not everyone can because they dont have time to sell or have chosen a profession that isnt as profitable. I think there needs to be a consistant way for players to do these tasks if they need too. I didnt realize that i could't make the juice until last, because i leave primary items to the end on the off chance i gain a few skillups in the process of doing the interum items which will help me on the primary quality. While not costly in this case, it could be in others and i really believe it is a bug that npc is handing out these kind of quests. I do not however think it is a bug that there are recipes in the game that require components that are harder to make than the finish.

[Elyana]

Herc PLEASE don't think that tradeskills were the last and least thing looked at. Seriously, that just is not true! Tradeskills went through alot of redesigns. They worked VERY hard in beta to please the community. Unfortunately they decided to move the release up before the tradeskill redesigns had been thoroughly bugged and checked. This was definately NOT due to a lack of interest on the devs part!

Yes, there are bugs out there that were reported. However I think they looked at them and prioritized. Was it more important to revamp a couple recipe books, or revamp the events and counters? Was it more important to add quests, or put out the provisioner recipes? Overall I do think they prioritized well, and the bugs we are running into are nothing compared to the system flaws we would have had if they had just given up at TS version 2 instead of moving on to the current version.

[Herculez]

Not saying as a whole it was last, but in practice. The current system wasnt implemented until the last week of beta and therefore was techincally the last thing looked at.

[beylanu]

Dont get me wrong, EQ2 is a great game and well constructed. But lets face it, the entire game is full of one bug after another and tradeskills were the last and least thing looked at in beta. It is my opinion that everything i see that 'seems' wrong, could possibly be.

Hehe..many guild leaders would disagree with you as they are of the opinion that guild mechanics were the last and least looked at "thing" in beta.

And as a guild leader and tradeskiller, I think both sides are right. :D