Cost per combination

[Elzar]

I'm going to try and show why as a woodworker each combination you do is worth about 9 sp.

Let's start with some material costs.

Material Costs:
Raw Ash - 320 cp - because that is what wholesaler tasks will buy them for
Thykaloid - 150 cp - right around 2x the price to make them of 83 cp, but I'll show later why this number doesn't matter a whole lot for the purposes of this calculation.
Fuel - 6cp - store bought
Ash Scraps - 133 cp - because this is what merchants will pay if you use them you aren't selling them so they cost you the same amount.
Turned Ash Lumber - 289 cp - scrap + thykaloid + fuel

Note that Turned Ash Lumber has a yield of 3 and sells for 4 sp each to the vendor. So the profit from Turned Ash Lumber (assuming material costs above): (400 * 3) - 289 = 911 cp

Yes a whopping 9 silver for doing a single combination! I know, I know, this isn't news to some.

Material Cost for Tapa paper:
Tapa Paper - 456 cp - ash + thykaloid + fuel

The material cost for Tapa Paper is 456 cp, but I have to add in the opportunity cost for not making Turned Ash (911 cp). So my minimum price for Tapa paper is 1367 cp, because for anything less I might as well be making Turned Ash Lumber and selling it to the merchant.

There are a few considerations of course. This assumes 100% perfect combinations for the Turned Ash Lumber because at normal quality the yield drops to two. It also assumes that you have ash scraps available, so save those scraps.

By this reasoning Ash Quills should sell for ~24 sp each (911 sp * 2 + cost of a quill 612 = 2434 sp).

What if I vary the prices of raw materials?
Some people may think that severed Ash isn't worth 320 sp, if the price goes lower than the cost per combine goes up proportionally.

Increasing the price of Thkylakoids actually has no effect on this calculation because it increases your costs for making Tapa paper and decreases your price for making Turned Ash proportionally.

At level 30 Woodworkers get Turned Briarwood Lumber which probably has a similar much higher calculation.

Don't sell yourselves short Woodworkers.

Thoughts?

[Dafydd]

Very good post and very good logic.

[Aguirre]

And I wonder if they have sell-back prices screwed up for some combines that yield multiple product :p I found this as soon as I dinged because I knew about the totem thing at tier2 (fixed now).

The result is that there is no point to making higher level items for anything but exp. I'd imagine that just making lumber and turned wood even gives pretty good exp (only 22 now) since it is pristine.

edit: I forgot to mention that your analysis is excellent, and makes perfect sense to me. I probably wouldn't even sell quills/paper since I've had so much trouble attempting to at what they are really worth. I would like to try a 3-way trade with a sgae/tailor sometime. Maybe quills/paper to sage, sage makes patters for tailor, tailor makes some bioled interims for me :)

[Ayaxi]

Deleted thread

[vae]

are the buy back prices still the same after the recent patch?

edit: for turned ash lumber i mean.

[Harland]

Yes price for turned ash is the same (as of 12/12/04), i've been grinding out exp and making a bit back on selling them to the merchant.

The reasoning on both the Ash quilll and paper is wrong in the post above.

Here is why...

Tapa paper

why use ash? why not belladona roots? cost is still the same though, but not a realized cost of wasting the ash on paper.

Using Ash, cost to make paper is: raw ash (320cp) + thylakoid (150cp) + fuel (6cp) + opportunity costs for not making turned ash (906cp, math wrong on that one) = 1376cp

Using Belladona Roots , cost ot make paper is: raw roots (320cp) + thylakoid (150cp) + fuel (6cp) = 476cp

You are crazy to use ash to make paper when roots can be used, use the ash to refine and make that profit you mentioned above by turning it into turned ash.


Ash Quills

Ash quills are not made from raw ash. They are made from refined ash, which you know yields the two scraps, therefore there is no lost opportunity costs on making ash quills by your example. So you do not "realize" a loss of 911cp*2 as you mentioned. You refine the raw ash, get 1 refined ash + 2 ash scraps to use with turned ash.

Cost of making Ash Quills is: refined ash (476cp) + thylakoid (150cp) + fuel (6cp) = 632cp

Definitely not 2434cp as mentioned.

Of course even my less costly examply still makes it hard to NOT be turning out Turned Ash for merchant rather than making paper and quills. I fully expect price to be adjusted down on turned ash in the near future for this reason.


Just my observations...

[Moock]

Buy back prices are the same.. Some things to think about

Ash Quills dent use scraps... they use refined ash, the scraps are a by product of making the refined ash so you would have to subtract the money you make from the scraps to get the true cost of making the Quills so it would only be fair to give them to me for free :)

Tapa paper.. dent have to use ash to make it, use belladonna in its place and save the ash for other combines.

[RavinRed]

I don't believe in opportunity costs. Just because I could make bank on Turned Whatever doesn't mean I should raise my prices. If I believed in opportunity costs, I'd be an adventurer, not a CraftElf.

However, I agree that if you are using wood to make paper, you're flat-out mad. Oh, I might use 1 or 2 to fill out a stack, but always use roots when you can.

Thanks harland, for your good analysis.

PS - buy-back prices on maple dropped: maple scraps dropped form 50c to 33c. *shrug*

[Korsis]

Using Ash, cost to make paper is: raw ash (320cp) + thylakoid (150cp) + fuel (6cp) + opportunity costs for not making turned ash (906cp, math wrong on that one) = 1376cp

Using Belladona Roots , cost ot make paper is: raw roots (320cp) + thylakoid (150cp) + fuel (6cp) = 476cp

You are crazy to use ash to make paper when roots can be used, use the ash to refine and make that profit you mentioned above by turning it into turned ash.

Good observations, but you are totally misunderstanding the opportunity cost there. The opportunity cost is for his TIME, not for his materials.

In a given period of time, he can do the turned maple combine, and make 9s. That means that his "time" for doing one combine is worth 9s. If he takes the same amount of time to create tapa paper, then he has to make *at least* 9s profit, or it is not worth his *time* to create the paper.

Now there are problems with the numbers. Assuming 9s per combine implies a reliable source for scraps, which is not really an independent factor. It would be more accurate, I think, to consider the whole process, like so.

IN: Raw Ash 320c, Thylakoid - 150c, Fuel - 6c, Labor - one combine
OUT: Refined Ash - ?, Scrap x2- 266c

If you stop here you are down 210c plus labor and up one refined lumber. Probably not worth it.

IN: Scrap x2 - 266c, Thylakoid x2 - 300c, Fuel x2 - 12c, Labor - two combines
OUT: Turned Ash Lumber x6 - 2400c

Individually, here you make 911c per combine here. But I think you need to also consider the combines you did to get here. From the previous step, we were down 210c plus one combine, and up one refined lumber. Now we are down the labor of three combines, and up one lumber plus 2190c.

So that means the worth of one combine of labor for this process is (on average) 730c plus 1/3 the price of one refined lumber. A little less than the original poster's estimate but not much. I'm not sure on the price of refined lumber, someone else can fill that in for me.

Using 730c as a floor for labor cost per combine (since the actual opportunity cost is 1/3 of a refined lumber higher than that), the price of paper is as follows

IN: Roots - 320c, Thyl - 150c, Fuel - 6c, Labor - 730c (from above)
Out: Paper

So, the output of one paper is worth 1206c. (Again, plus 1/3 the price of lumber.)

Now I'll look at quills

IN: Ash - 320c, Thyl - 150c, Fuel - 6c, Labor - 730c
OUT: Lumber - ?, Scrap x2 - 266c

Here we are down 940c to produce one lumber.

IN: Lumber - ?, Thyl - 150c, Fuel - 6c, Labor - 730c
OUT: Quill

So that's an additional 886c to turn the lumber into a quill. Total costs of one quill: 1826c.

It is important to note that these are not necessarily the prices at which you should sell your quills and paper. That should be determined my market equilibrium. If you can sell them reliably for more than those prices, that means that your time is better spent making quills and selling to players for maximum profit. If the market equilibrium price on quills is below 1826c, that does not mean that you should stubbornly price them there anyway. It means that you should just stop making them and do vendor sell back with turned ash.

I do not think that is what SoE intended. I very much expect this to be changed with the tradeskill patch rumored for this week.

Of course even my less costly examply still makes it hard to NOT be turning out Turned Ash for merchant rather than making paper and quills. I fully expect price to be adjusted down on turned ash in the near future for this reason.

IMO, this quote shows that you do realize how very valuable the process of making turned ash is. It also shows that you have a functional understanding of opportunity cost, even though you seem to have misunderstood the original poster slightly. Hopefully my numbers are helpful.

[Korsis]

I don't believe in opportunity costs.

You are more than welcome to believe in them or not. Regardless of your choice, they still exist. :)

Just because I could make bank on Turned Whatever doesn't mean I should raise my prices.

This much, however, is completely true. Your prices should be based on market equilibrium. Your decision of whether or not to make a product (assuming your goal is to maximize profits) should be based on cost calculations such as these.

[RavinRed]

Heavens no. I'm going to decide to make a product based on whether there is a market for it. I don't play the game to keep my wholesaler in scraps :p

PS: I also do combines for free if all materials are provided. *GASP*

[Aguirre]

PS: I also do combines for free if all materials are provided. *GASP*

You probably do not do combines for free. Otherwise if I were a woodworker on your server I'd have you make ash quills/paper for me to sell to others. I'd sit back and have my friendly drone do all the work :p

Just having a little fun making a point. Most people don't do something for free, they may hope to build relations, or to get exp, or whatever. And there is nothing wrong with that :)

Korsis, you're analysis rocks. And you are completely right imo. This is why I would really not sell quills/paper on the market at this time. If you price at what it is worth most sages will not buy. If you bargain price it, some random sage will get it.

I've built excellent relationships with a couple sages who are willing to trade interim items for quills/paper. This has worked out well for me.

I do a rough formula of trading equal labor and material costs...as well as the hidden 'i don't like making interims' cost :p

[Harland]

Much clearer Korsis, and exactly right!

It was very late when I posted my reply above and while my anaylsis is similair, I do not include the value of the labor, which I should have. You did a fine job of doing that. As a result, your analysis comes somewhere between mine and the original posters, again suggesting that right now, there is no market for paper and quills that makes it worth my effort.

[vae]

Yes awesome explanation Korsis. this makes my level 20 decision between provisioner and woodworker even harder now lol as 7-9sp per combine is very tempting.

its hard to guess if they will adjust the buy back rate of turned lumber, but if they were going to wouldnt they have already? because they adjusted the refined maple lumber rates down a little from 50cp to 30cp (i think) and didnt touch turned maple lumber.

[Korsis]

I would advise that you decide which trade you enjoy doing more in general, rather than deciding based on any specific aspect. In any MMOG, it is inevitable that classes are continuously changed and rebalanced, and specific details might not be there six months from now.

[vae]

but thats the part i enjoy, making profit. i enjoyed making food/drink because i could sell it back for 1sp and same thing with maple lumber.

will decide later i guess.

[Elzar]

However, I agree that if you are using wood to make paper, you're flat-out mad. Oh, I might use 1 or 2 to fill out a stack, but always use roots when you can.


Well that assumes that wood is as or more expensive than belladonna. As it turns out on my server severed ash is cheaper to belladonna roots.

One other bit of thought on the subject, as I've hit the midlevels of woodworker I've found that it takes a really really really long time to level. And frankly turning around to sell turned maple at the merchant is a little tedious. So for no reason more than that I've been levelling on things that stack nicely, namely paper and quills.

[RavinRed]

The reason I would never use wood for paper is because you loose the scraps and the potential to make money recycling in your spare time. I never buy raw materials when I can spend an hour and fill my bags with them.


On a topic related by right angles...

A weaponsmith asked me to crank out some Ash Staves for him yesterday. I was just 21, and just starting on T3 components (I was stockpiling). So, with this thread in mind, I ran the numbers. For you economically minded folks, I'd note that I tend to think of the raw materials as "free" 'cause they're just lying around, and I *never* buy them. So here's my calcluclation:

OUTGO
Ash = free
Resin x2 = 300c
Fuel = 12c
TOTAL COST for one Stave = 312c

Bonus costs:
Scraps = Free
Resin x2 = 300c
Fuel = 12c
(Turned Ash)

Potential Income from NPC:
1 Stave = 400c
6 Turned Ash = 2400c

Income = 2800c
Outgo = 612c
Potential Profit = 2188c

Not bad.

I priced my Staves at 8s, 100% more than an NPC will give me, and 488c over out-of-pocket costs.

The Weaponsmith complained that was a bit high, since the Work Shop would only give him X amount and he was trying not to take too big of a loss.... Well, I'm a softy. Eventually he provided all the components and I did the combines for 2sp each for a net profit of 40sp and a stack of scraps.

The fellow was *quite* nice, and threw in two lovely weapons that were an upgrade for me as a thank-you. :)

Good economics? Perhaps not. But I feel good about it.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

[Aguirre]

Cool RavinRed, trades rather than brokering interim items are a lot of fun for me. The interim items don't have a steady cash value, but trading seems safe. Interdependency feels like such a drag at first, but I totally love it now and I've made some decent relationships. I trade interims just about every day...it takes making a lot of quills/paper and threads. But if I did not I'd have no supplies to make shields/bows/weapons.

Weaponsmiths are good to trade with since they can provide something we need...boiled hilts. Usually I end up trading with a sage for patterns and trading those for other things.

[Atlock Darkhand]

Wow I am coming over from lvling to 19.9 as a provishioner... and yall make my head hurt. Allot of what you all said is over my head, but Ravinred's post makes sence...

I trade for the things that I need... For the resigns... I trade the raw componets and get my resigns... so... it seems to be ok for me... because While i am out killing.. I harvest... get the stuff I need for my trades and to sell then craft for the rest of the night...

I would like to ask a few questions...

What is the most wanted product we all make now 20+?

Leveling... What should I keep, sell, and what is just usless to lvl on?

Can our wears compet with the Bows and staves that people get as drops at 20+?

[parki]

I can say that we can't compete much on the shields IF they do camp or have a nice guild. I've seen a few ones (kite,tower) and they are far better.

As an example (probably not the best one I could have taken :D), grimfeather drops a "godly" shield, but it requires a neat group to kill him :D

About the bows... well, they are _a bit_ better. Just a bit higher dmg and stats. But still quite average.

I can't say much about the staves, sorry.