Why provisioners need to be able to make multiples (and a proposed fix)

[Theophastus]

Right now, it's quite difficult for provisioners to sell their goods to other players and make a good return on investment (monitarily and time-wise). Here's why- our goods are perishable; the standard unit of trade is a stack. However, it can take a provisioner up to a half hour to make a stack of food or drink, as compared to a minute to make a scroll or a weapon (where the standard is one unit per trade). What's more, the NPCs offer enough money for our work that it is almost not worth the time to try to sell to other players. For example: tier 3 stuff sells for 4sp to vendors. To compensate for time spent trying to sell the goods to other players, 5sp would be a reasonable price.

How many tier 3 adventurers do you know willing to pay a gold for a stack of food or drink? Not too many, I'm sure. This means that it's more efficient in the long run to sell our goods back to NPC vendors.

One simple fix would solve this problem: allow provisioners to make multiple items per combine. Specifically, scale up the number returned based on the quality of the combine (1 for crude, 4 for pristine). Then, divide the selling price for finished products by four. What this would do is make the creation of a stack of food/drink (the standard of trade) require a much more reasonable amount of time (5 mins or so) while allowing us to sell to adventurers at a much more reasonable price without sacrificing a higher potential profit that could be had by selling to a vendor.

If anyone has any thoughts on this, post them here! Maybe provisioners will finally get some much-needed dev attention. They already have the refine basil recipe on test in addition to descriptions of food and drink on the items, so we aren't being wholly ignored.

[ashynn]

I was thinking they'll put it in after we've all hit lvl 50 as an AA skill ...

Would be very nice tho to be able to make batches, i mean, IRL you double the recipe very frequently. Only problem I see with the 1-4 depending on the quality is that you don't get the longer duration for a higher quality product. Albeit that is something I would gladly sacrifice if I could whip out stacks in 1/4 the time.

Other thing-

You mentioned profits. I just "found" the quests today, and I am finding them to be rather profitable. The items I was requested to build paid out at 1g 44s (lvl 28) for 10 items, and they were lvl 28 recipes, which I made from the raw refined stacks I had in the bank. This last one called for mackerel tho, and none was available on the broker. Guess it's time for ninja-steath fishing in Nek. :D

-Ashynn

[Theophastus]

Touche, the tradeskill quests are quite profitable, especially if you harvest your own stuff. I was just thinking more along the lines of selling to other PCs (which is why I got into crafting, not to sell to NPCs).

[ashynn]

I don't see provisioner as something that will have a high demand in the beginning of the game. People are getting themselves geared, and tightly clinging to their cp. However, as the game develops, and they've gotten their gear, we'll see more demand for our products, as they're expendable.

Other TS people will be in need as well, as they're sucking up more power resources when they create their high-level products, and the difference in regen makes the difference between a stack taking 20 min or 40.

Hang in there. I've been rather frustrated as my TS buddies are hearing ca-chings and I'm looking at 25cp and grinding out T2 stuff to make coin. T3 and the quests brightened my outlook significantly, as did looking thru the lens of time to see how this might develop. I came to the conclusion after looking at dynamics that this is something through which our bank accounts will bulge in the long, rather than short, run.

[Theophastus]

Look at it this way. If you make four times as much product for one fourth of the price, you will be able to make the same amount of money over a given time span (possibly more, because I think that demand would increase more than proportionally - food is a luxury item so it's highly price-elastic in most MMOs). Tier 5 stuff sells to vendors for 12.8 gold a stack - now you're talking about a long wait for the demand to catch up!

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to be able to make something that somebody would want to buy in 5 (final) combines compared to 20 and to be able to sell them at a price that an adventurer of the appropriate level can afford.

Edit: I don't see how tier 3 provisionering can make you more optimistic -> at lvl 20 we get 2 new recipes we can actually make, then 21 we can finally make all our lvl 20 recipes; lvl 22 adds a couple more recipes (all of which I think we can actually make!), then at lvl 23 we get 4 new recipes, only one of which we can actually make. If nothing else, I think tier 3 showcases the bad design that went into the class. How many other tradeskill classes have most of their recipes unmakable when they get them? Not many.

[Dafydd]

Many adventures are just starting to learn the importance of provisioner made food and drink.

I am finding that provisioner made drinks are like EverQuest. Just give out a few freebies and next thing you know you will have regular customers.

[Dafydd]

Edit: I don't see how tier 3 provisionering can make you more optimistic -> at lvl 20 we get 2 new recipes we can actually make, then 21 we can finally make all our lvl 20 recipes; lvl 22 adds a couple more recipes (all of which I think we can actually make!), then at lvl 23 we get 4 new recipes, only one of which we can actually make. If nothing else, I think tier 3 showcases the bad design that went into the class. How many other tradeskill classes have most of their recipes unmakable when they get them? Not many.

I don't know what your talking about ? I am level 25 and I am loving being a Provisioner. Of all the tradeskills its my favorite.

As for this complaint your making I actually hope they don't make the change you wish because as it is now every book from level 20 to 25 gives us atleast 1 new recipie that we can make using a single combine from harvested materials. Forget about making every recipie in your book .... don't sweet it ... just don't make them! Be happy I am.

[Dafydd]

in addition to descriptions of food and drink on the items, so we aren't being wholly ignored.

this is the one thing that I do strongly agree with you on. I get so many tells asking me how to tell the difference between Teir 1 2 & 3 food & drink. Adventures want good quality drinks but after all the obvious price gouging being done by the other professions they are very leary of spending money on foods and drinks they know very little about..

I have to give away a lot of drink to get people to try it out... they then see the benefits and start requesting more.

[Kargan]

One possible thing that can drag all your equations into the mud is if you consider that food sells for too -much- to vendors. 4sp per food item at that level seems way high, especially with no subcombines needed.

[Dafydd]

One possible thing that can drag all your equations into the mud is if you consider that food sells for too -much- to vendors. 4sp per food item at that level seems way high, especially with no subcombines needed.
Most all other classes have somthing that they can make in a single combine that will yeald them 4sp or more sell back.

You see all the different trad skills below that I am doing.. Provisioner is my highest level char but it is not my best money maker... And i would like to point out that as your societies level up and your ably to buy your sub combines dirt cheep off the society vendors all the other professions will be making much more per single combine than a Provisioner.

Example.

Provisioner catches 1 fish buys Spice + coal = cost of 42cp resulting baked product sells for 1sp.

Carpenter harvests 1 Maple. buys stroma from NPC vendor for 24cp + 6cp for sand paper. Results = 1 lumber and 2 scraps all three sell to NPC for 50cp each.

Provisioner 1 combine = 58cp profit (Tieir 2)
Carpenter 1 combine = 120cp profit (Teir 2)

Similar example hold true for all classes.

Also note if you take the above 2 examples and you turn that fish into something like a casaroll the provisioner actually looses money trying to gain exp... The carpenter can turn each of those scraps into x3 turned staffs and each staff into multiple toems.

[Adaria]

As mentioned, almost every tradeskill has some recipe(s) that yield at least the same or more profit with 1 combine.

Carpenters & woodworkers can do two combines and earn even more profit (when you plane maple you get maple scraps. Turn those maple scraps (pristine) and you get 3 turned maple you can sell to the NPC for 1s each. I imagine the same recipe exists with ash.

The probable difference is that Provisioners tend to have recipes further into their tree that require few subcombines. A 16th level woodworker could turn maple all day and make a nice profit, but wouldn't gain much XP since the recipe would be green. A 16th level baker, on the other hand, probably has some recipes around that level (orange juice for example) so they can level up on them.

So the difference isn't that provisioning is more profitable than other tradeskills, it's just that it's easier to advance AND earn a profit at the same time than it is with some other tradeskills by only selling to NPC (selling to players is a different story).

Personally, I would like to see the possibility to make multiples based on the level of the recipe.

Grey Recipes: x 20
Green Recipes: x 9
Blue Recipes: x 3
White/Yellow/Orange Recipes: x 1

This would *not* mean that you get an output of 20 for an input of 1. But rather would determine how many of each component you're allowed to start with.

So let's say you had 8 coal, 8 golden chichild, and 8 packets of spice.

If this recipe was white to you, you could cook two at a time. If the recipe was green to you, you could cook 8 at a time.

XP would only be given once per combine. This method would just be to reduce the number of pre-combines that you need to do. So you earn the same XP for combining 1 blue recipe as you fo for combining 3 blue recipes together.

Player could toggle how many recipes they want to cook together using some button in the display.

That would be my suggestion anyways. Reduces time spent pre-combining, helps reduce boredom, doesn't break XP advancement.

- Adaria

[Kargan]

I must be missing something then because as a Jeweler I have found no such single-combine recipe that sells for 4sp.

[Adaria]

Is that with Tier 3 Artificing?

[Theophastus]

I don't know what your talking about ? I am level 25 and I am loving being a Provisioner. Of all the tradeskills its my favorite.

As for this complaint your making I actually hope they don't make the change you wish because as it is now every book from level 20 to 25 gives us atleast 1 new recipie that we can make using a single combine from harvested materials. Forget about making every recipie in your book .... don't sweet it ... just don't make them! Be happy I am.

I never said I wasn't happy with being a provisioner, I'm just not 100% satisfied.

I think you allude to another problem (as I see it) - for other tradeskills, the more complex the recipe (subcombine-wise), the better the product they can make, right? Example, to make a maple strongbox I need to do 2 subcombines and buy 2 things from an outfitter. The result is a really nice and useful box (that's the best example I have because I haven't explored too much outside my own class). Also, higher-level combines generally produce better things, no?

For provisioners, all the combines within a given level range produce the same results, regardless of complexity. I think that multi-combine foods and drinks (ex. Refuge Island Iced Tea, for a good example) should give more regen than a single-combine recipe (Orange Juice), or perhaps more duration or something. I also think, although I feel less strongly about this, that higher-level combines within a given tier should be better than the lower-level ones.

[Kargan]

Is that with Tier 3 Artificing?

I am a 25 jeweler and all my single combine recipes are gold bars and agate gems. everything else requires a subcombine. My artificing is maxed.

[Theophastus]

One possible thing that can drag all your equations into the mud is if you consider that food sells for too -much- to vendors. 4sp per food item at that level seems way high, especially with no subcombines needed.

I can agree with this. However, I think it sucks to have to spend 20+ minutes making a stack for one customer. People don't buy food one or two units at a time.

[Kargan]

The price of jewelery by comparison is way overinflated on the open market. I can charge 1gp per agate/gold piece and sell out within an hour. That's at a ~15sp cost to me. Each take materials from alchemists and 3 subcombines + final combine. That price will drop dramatically as more jewelers reach the appropriate levels. It happened with Electrum/Turquoise and it will happen with agate/gold soon.

The flaw in the above argument in my opinion is basing your sale price on the vendor price. It should be more like: it costs me X, people are willing to pay me Y for it, is it worth it for me to make and sell it? If the answer is yes, then do it. The problem as I see it is that the vendors are paying too much for such a simple combine and is skewing the provisioners view of what they should be able to charge end-users. Even with the increased regen rates, I agree with you and see few adventurers willing to spend 1gp on an expendable product.

[Adaria]

Ah, my apologies than Kargan. I'm a provisioner only, so I can't speak adequately for all the other trades, just what some friends have told me.

The woodworking tree is similarly profitable for vendor sellback (using the turned <wood> recipe).

Perhaps they tuned the sellback prices based on how viable the player purchase market seemed to be? Like perhaps specifically because Jewellers can fetch such good prices from players, they chose to have the wholesaler pay less?

As mentioned by others, the player market for consumable food is very limited. The regeneration takes place outside of combat. People seem *VERY* disinclined to purchase food/drink from players, at least until the higher levels, and even then they aren't interested in paying much.

This may change over time, as more people become aware of how much their downtime can be improved by staying fed, but the lack of a player market for food/drink right now would certainly make it difficult to advance if the NPCs weren't paying a profit for it as well.

- Adaria

PS: As 27th level provisioner, I have 4 gold to my name right now. The most I've had was 14, and most of it came from repeatedly doing wholesaler quests. Just wanted to note that the comments about provisioning in another thread being a license to "mint gold coins" is a big exaggerated.

[Theophastus]

OK, so we agree on the basic premise that the vendors pay too much for single-combine food/drink items - that was included as part of my proposed fix.

You have to agree though that, if the vendors pay x amount for something, it wouldn't make any sense for a provisioner to make something and sell it to players for less. That's not a skew of perception, that's not a flaw in argument, it's just common sense.

Just dropping the vendor sell prices by themselves would gimp us pretty hard though. Let's say the equilibrium market price for a stack of tier 3 would reach 40 silver after dropping NPC merchant buying price, for the sake of argument. We would still be doing 20 combines to make that 40 silver, which just isn't worth the time investment IMO. 20 combines for 1gp is.

[Adaria]

It's limited by harvesting too though, Theo.

Suppose the NPC buyback price of baked goods were lowered to an absolute break-even value, making it possible to level up selling to the NPC vendors, but not at all profitable.

So suppose then that you can make 20 "Big Fayberries" with only one combine, and sell them for 1 gold (and based on my experience people still won't even pay that much. If they did this wouldn't be an issue. People want to pay something closer to 20 silver).

Yes, in this case, you have done 3 combines and earned 1 gold. And a jewelcrafter has done 3 combines (?) and earned 1 gold.

The difference is that even with the pre-combines, the jeweller has only had to harvest a few raw materials. Maybe 3? You've had to harvest 40.

So even though you've fixed the processing time, you're neglecting the harvesting time.

I'd wholly support a system which allowed an increased quantity of combines, especially if linked to the "con" color of the recipe, but I wouldn't support lowering the NPC buyback price for baked goods. Yes it's more than *some* other tradeskills, but likewise the other tradeskills have a strong player market that doesn't exist for baked goods.

As useful as my food is, I basically have to give it away to group members. No one has any interest in purchasing it for the most part. I've met two people, both over level 30, who were interested in arranging some trades for drinks, but that's about it. Money's in too short of supply before then.

- Adaria

[Striider]

I think vendor sellback prices are fine, you guys are looking at this the wrong way. What would you be doing if you weren't in the crafting instance making this crap? ADVENTURING! That's right..you would be "harvesting" spells and armor items and cash drops from mobs that would net you a similar return or better. The vendor sellback prices are as high as they are so you don't go broke trying to level your trade AND fall behind your buddies that are out adventuring. Your time should be worth something, shouldn't it?

[Theophastus]

Adaria- you're actually agreeing with the premise that I put out in my first post. Let us make multiples per combine with one harvested item going in.

And Striider, if the changes I suggested went live you would be able to make the same amount of money per combine selling to a vendor (assuming you make pristine; you SHOULD get more money for making a higher-quality combine). It's just that the per-unit price has to drop for there to be more player interest.

I'm a 27 shaman/23 provisioner, so I have a pretty good perspective to say that most tier 3 adventurers cannot afford being continuously supplied with tier 3 food. Not to mention, with the amount of time it takes to make a stack I get pissed off supplying MYSELF with food.

[Kargan]

I think we agree then.

Believe me when I say I do not make comments like 'merchant buyback is too high' lightly or with nerf intent. I am just saying that with it being so high there is no way a provisioner will ever sell to the public. The hassle involved accompanied by a likely lower price gained = no market. No provisioner in his right mind is going to sell to players for less than he can get from an NPC. Yet players cannot match what the NPC pays ... so changes need to be made.

1. Lower NPC buyback on all single-combine recipes across the board (not just provs)
2. Increase provisioner (and prolly a few other classes recipes) to be similar to alchemy recipes where they get multiples based on success level. These recipes should sell to merchants for even less each than the single-combine single-result foods.
3. Increase longevity of player made foodstuffs to be far beyond merchant food.

#1 will force provisioners to price food at a level where it is attractive to players. #2 will mitigate the less-per-food income by increasing output per raw material investment. #3 is not really necessary but would help advs decide to use player-made over merchant food.

Markets are skewed right now, so directly comparing one class to another is unfair. However the conclusions I am drawing above and offering solutions for are independant of class really.

[Theophastus]

Looks like we agree then. I haven't considered the duration of vendor bought food though, because I have never used it :)

[fennyin]

Maybe some of the advanced provisioner books that they haven't put in the game should include some recipes to make multiples?

[Theophastus]

I was thinking they should have recipes to make food/drink with stats or buffs on it.

[Korsis]

As mentioned by others, the player market for consumable food is very limited. The regeneration takes place outside of combat. People seem *VERY* disinclined to purchase food/drink from players, at least until the higher levels, and even then they aren't interested in paying much.

Well then in that case, this is adventurers being boneheaded. The regen that a level-appropriate crafted drink gives is HUGE. I have the advantage of having a provisioner as a roommate, so I've been exposed to a lot of food and drink at low/no cost. But now that I've had a taste of it, the difference between even that food and cleric summoned food is remarkable. If he stopped making food for some reason, I would drop a gold for a stack of tier 3 food in a heartbeat.

Some people will just be stingy and will be willing to level slower just to not pay for food. But I assure you that once players see how much of a difference drinks make, you won't be able to make enough. Orange Juice is the new KEI.

Actually there is one caveat. Food is really not such a big deal, since there are so many heal spells around. But drinks are huge. Drinks is where the money is at. My provisioner friend can't keep his store stocked. Admittedly, he's given out a lot of free drinks to build up a customer base, but he's gone to bed selling a stack or two of antonican coffee at seven! silver a piece, and sells out every single time.

[JuneauCB]

It is funny to see lack of consumer knowledge working for and against us. Against us, people do not realize the potent effect of drinks. For us, people also do not realize that they can buy the same drinks from NPC merchants for 1 silver each.

[Flom Bhey]

It is funny to see lack of consumer knowledge working for and against us. Against us, people do not realize the potent effect of drinks. For us, people also do not realize that they can buy the same drinks from NPC merchants for 1 silver each.

That's my biggest beef with my chosen artisan class (provisioner). The NPC's sell food and drink at fantastically low prices. Even though what they sell isn't near as good as what we can make, the perception is "why should I pay you 25c per drink when I can buy water from an NPC for 5c. (I'm just using T1 stuff as an example, obviously T2+ stuff is vastly different)

No matter how good our food/drink is, other players will be reluctant to buy from us because the NPC vendors sell so cheap. Right now, our food/drink lasts twice as long and gives 50% more regen, however, it costs almost 5 times as much to make (even more if you don't do your own harvesting) than store bought food/drink sells for. I don't care about the sell back price to vendors....what I want to see is an increase in the price at which they sell basic food/drink to players. THEN we will see more players taking an interest in our products.

Right now, I can only give my finished products away. If I try to charge for it, people just say "no thanks, your food isn't THAT good, I can buy it way cheaper at the merchant", and I'm only charging what it cost me to make....no mark up.

[laughingowl]

Well one thing on making 'multiples' with higher quality.

You effectively do that.

A 'pristine' drink (or food) well last twice as long as a 'crude' drink. Not quite as visible as '2' drinks, but selling to players it is added value.

Crude drinks (tier1 or 2) 45 minutes.
Shaped (tier 1 or 2) 60 minutes
normal 75 minutes
Pristine 90 minutes


Now in my opion I am fine with the 'last longer' rather than volume. But think they number should be a little higher. say 45, 67, 90, 150 minutes. (each extra level adding 50% over the base 45 minutes.)

A slight adjsut to the times (already present) rather than numbers would make pristine food much fair price then crude.

There is still the limit that if you 'die' you lose your food so no assurance that the pie will last you 150 minutes, it could last you 30 seconds with a bad pull.....


But in effect (if talking selling to players, and they already nerfed selling to vendors) you do get multiples for higher quality.


Now making spells that seems to be the jip... no payout at all for getting above crude.....

[Flom Bhey]

Provisioners DO need to be able to have yields of greater than 1 for finished products because the demand for provisions is in STACKS.

There is a precident for this....ammo. Ammo is produced in quantities because it is assumed that the customer will be buying it in bulk. The same goes for provisions. It's not only reasonable to assume the customer will want their food/drink in bulk, but in reality they DO want it in bulk (stacks).

When someone wants provisions from me, they request a STACK....not 1, or 2, or 3 ....but a STACK.

If someone went to a scholar and said "please give me a stack of App III healing spells". The scholar would have a stroke because the work required to make a stack is enormous, yet no one has a problem demanding a stack of food/drink because it is consumed in quantity.

Since food/drink is consumed in quantity, it should be made in quantity. As it stands, provisioners have to do 20 times the work they should be doing.

A side benfit to this would be that the cost of food/drink to the customer would go down. If the yield per combine was increased then the per unit cost (and labor) to the provisioner would go down and he/she would be able to charge less for a stack of provisions.

Example: If it costs 1s to make 1 food (with all the sub-combines) then the cost for a stack to the provisioner is 20s. Selling that stack for 25s is crazy considering all the work that went into making it (the average recipe has 3 subcombines so a stack of 20 will require 60 combines). However, if that same 1s could yield 10 finished product (or even 5) then the cost to make a stack is now 2s and the number of sub-combines will have dropped dramatically and so the provisioner will be able to sell that stack at a reduced price and still make a profit and feel good about the profit being made vs the effort required to make it.

As it stands now, people are getting all bent out of shape about the prices a provisioner wants to charge for food / drink. The reason they have to charge these prices is because of the 1:1 yield.

Provisions are like ammo....they NEED to be produced in bulk.

[vae]

i havnt found it very hard to get people to see what drinks can do. All u do is this:

1. hand them the drink
2. say "it will double your power regen"

if someone said they could double you power regen wouldnt u jump at the chance?? and its true it does (for level 10-20 anyway since thats the ppl i group with). Instead of regen at 4%, they regen at 8% after drink, which is double.

usually get alot of interested ppl after that.

[mickie]

one thing they need to do is the disable the sub-components sold from wholesale.

Right now, Antonican coffee is 26cp, orange juice is 26 cp.

With that basis, what is the point of actually going out / or buying coffee beans/ oranges and making drinks.

Im my view, i wouldn't charge less that 2s for each pristine drink i make cause it takes me a lot of time to gather the materials and process them.

In my view, they need to INCREASE the cost of food from NPCS and they should also all some added value to ALL pristine level foods. *eg, +5 wis for pristine OJ, +5 int for pristine coffee, etc etc* This also goes for complex foods with sub-components. SOE needs to realize that no one will buy cream coffee when black coffee does the same thing AND cost less.

And a comment about tier 3 drinks.
I've harvested in Thundering Steppe for about 3 days, 2-3 hours on and off. I've gotten 9 fayberries, 10 oolong tea leaves, 6 rye. At this rate i feel i should charge ~6s for each of those drinks just for the fact that it's hard to get these components in bulk. Broker doesn't help much when people decide that a fayberry or oolong leave is worth 4s. It's very disheartening.

Seafood is the only thing keeping me going.

[JuneauCB]

They removed edible ingredients from the society merchants on Test and plan to remove them Live in the next big patch. The few they had left on Test in a level <10 society were all level 0 High Satiation edibles with ~8 minute durations. The rest were flagged inedible.

What's interesting to note is that a few of the newbie quests result in provisions superior to the ones we can make as low-level artisans. While their duration was only 30 minutes, their satiation was Superior as opposed to High. I don't mind this since these quests aren't repeatable, only provide tier 1 provisions, and help to teach players that high-quality provisions are good stuff.