People that undercut on prices should be {boycotted}

[nicolaskl]

I honestly don't get it. Let's see, I could sell my wares as fast as I can make them for x. Or I can sell them as fast as I can make them for .5x or .75x. Which makes more sense? What kind of short sighted moron would shoot himself in the foot by undercutting?

First of all, for every person you're willing to undercut, there's someone else out there that'll be happy to undercut you. Net result is that sooner or later you're crafting for exp, not for money.

Second of all, there's not even a benefit right now to undercutting. I'm priced at a fair price, which is 20-50% more than two people who shall remain nameless on my server, and I still sell out virtually every night. We're both selling all our items, they're just making a lot less than I am doing it. The problem is that eventually everyone is going to know about the price cutters prices so I wont be able to sell my stuff for what I normally sell it for, so I'll have to lower my prices to their prices, which means they'll lower their prices again. Repeat ad nauseum.

Sooner or later the market is going to go in the crapper. It's pretty much unavoidable, especially considering once you put a crafted item out there it's out there forever. I just don't see why some jackholes have to help it along. If you're a crafter and you always determine your prices by subtracting a certain percentage from what other people are currently charging then you are a boob.

[Sergio]

you're right (apart from the insults) - but i can actually understand why people do this: impatience. the way the market system is implemented right now (either craft OR sell, you can't do both), the time many artisans spend selling is short, because they prefer to craft, not to wiggle their thumbs. alas, they find no customers in the short time they stand there (lunch and dinner pauses), so after a while their reasoning could well be: i didn't sell anything so far, so i'd better sell at a loss than not at all. others seeing those prices have to chime in: better at a loss than not at all.

you might call me single-minded, but i blame most of the crafting problems that people rant about on one thing primarily: having to stay logged in your room for selling.

[nicolaskl]

That's why the good lord invented /afk. I don't sell at all when I'm actually playing, I sell when I'm asleep and at class, and I'm pretty sure the sellers I'm talking about are the same way. The selling system sucks if you have dial-up, in which case I probably wouldn't even be crafting, but it's fine for anyone with a constant internet connection.

[Moonshade]

This is a competitive market system. Eventually the prices will even out at some point when merchants are no longer willing to sell for less. Frankly if you can't handle competition, maybe being a merchant isn't for you. Sorry to be so blunt, but I don't see a problem with undercutting the competition to make a sale. That's the way a free market system works. I'd hate to see a system where the first person who sets a price for something determines the price for everyone. Especially after seeing things like tier 2 pelts being sold for 59sp! Or, being offered at 59sp, because I hope nobody actually bought them.

[Sergio]

nicolaskl,
no it's not - at least not for everyone. constant internet connection doesn't equal constantly being logged in and having the computer running 24/7. this might not be a huge issue for eq players being used to that silly idea - but for many others it is.

some of those undercutters might just be too greedy for their own good, but many will think along the lines i posted.

[Sergio]

moonshade,
i thought nicolaskl meant prices below cost - simply lowering prices to be competitive is, well, what a merchant does... :D

[nicolaskl]

This is a competitive market system. Eventually the prices will even out at some point when merchants are no longer willing to sell for less. Frankly if you can't handle competition, maybe being a merchant isn't for you. Sorry to be so blunt, but I don't see a problem with undercutting the competition to make a sale. That's the way a free market system works. I'd hate to see a system where the first person who sets a price for something determines the price for everyone. Especially after seeing things like tier 2 pelts being sold for 59sp! Or, being offered at 59sp, because I hope nobody actually bought them.

And if the prices even out at cost because there will be some people willing to craft for nothing more than experience, you don't have a problem with that? Because I assure you, there are people out there with that mentality. Just this morning I saw someone saying on another board that he was really happy he could make ANY profit, because that was like getting paid to exp.

[nicolaskl]

moonshade,
i thought nicolaskl meant prices below cost - simply lowering prices to be competitive is, well, what a merchant does... :D

What a bad merchant does maybe. Proactively deflating the market and reducing your own profit certainly can't be tactics of a good merchant.

[Dafydd]

Just a thought about a situation.

I log on and buy a few iron studs for 2-3sp each and I buy some sheets for 2-3sp each and I buy some resin for 1sp each x2 and I buy already harvested Maple for 50cp. + fuel I end up making a bunch ~10 maple strong boxes for a cost of about 7 to 8 sp each. Do I sell them for 50sp just because thats what your selling yours for or can I be happy with 500% profit and sell them at 40sp?.

Ok so Now have 10 maple strong boxes in my overflow that cost me a total of ~75sp to make. And they cost me about 30 min to make.

I go up to my apartment to sell them. I check the boards and several people are listing them at 50sp each.

I know I can sell them 3 at a time for 50sp but I have to come back every 1 to 2 hours and move them from over flow to inventory 2 or 3 at a time. ~ 4 to 6 hours of vendor mode.
- OR -
I can list them all in ~ 1 hour for 30 to 40 sp.


Do you call this good business to make ~250sp profit in 1 hour verse making 450sp over 6 hours? There is a busniss term called 'Rate of return on investment'

To me its a no brainer.... If I'm about to go shopping ot to bed I list them at 50+sp each because I know that I can sell them at that rate over the time I'm gone. If I have several boxes and I am doing chores aroung the house and I can check my board every 20 min...

Personally I feel that the person who should be shot is the person taking advantage of the unsuspecting buyer and over pricing their products.

[Dafydd]

What a bad merchant does maybe. Proactively deflating the market and reducing your own profit certainly can't be tactics of a good merchant.

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a min. I don't do this, but I can see why some people may do this.


Ok take the Strong box market for example.... The devious businessman may do this. Mas produce Maple Strong boxes and sell them at cost ~ 8sp. This floods the market with his product....
He benefits by having his name on all the maple chests setting in everyones bank... That player later lkevels up and wants to buy ash boxes and he examines his maple boxes and sees the name of the player that made it. Its ADVERTISING!! Even better yet that player that bought the maple box gives it to a friend who gives it to another friend as they upgrade .. etc More Advertising.

The next way the devious business man benefits is he is covering the cost if his crafting exp and because he is pumping so many boxes into the market so cheep that other crafters deside against going the carpenter rout.. Thus he has driven his future competiton out of the business.

Next he has to trade skill like crazy to pump out a constant flow of boxes for 10sp each.. He levels fater than you and he gets to gouge the market on Tir 3 and then on Tir 4 markets.

Just a few thoughts from the devils advocate on the topic.

** Please ** don't attack me I was just being devils advocate here.

[nicolaskl]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for a min. I don't do this, but I can see why some people may do this.


Ok take the Strong box market for example.... The devious businessman may do this. Mas produce Maple Strong boxes and sell them at cost ~ 8sp. This floods the market with his product....
He benefits by having his name on all the maple chests setting in everyones bank... That player later lkevels up and wants to buy ash boxes and he examines his maple boxes and sees the name of the player that made it. Its ADVERTISING!! Even better yet that player that bought the maple box gives it to a friend who gives it to another friend as they upgrade .. etc More Advertising.

The next way the devious business man benefits is he is covering the cost if his crafting exp and because he is pumping so many boxes into the market so cheep that other crafters deside against going the carpenter rout.. Thus he has driven his future competiton out of the business.

Next he has to trade skill like crazy to pump out a constant flow of boxes for 10sp each.. He levels fater than you and he gets to gouge the market on Tir 3 and then on Tir 4 markets.

Just a few thoughts from the devils advocate on the topic.

** Please ** don't attack me I was just being devils advocate here.

It's an interesting idea but it's definitely not what is going on here.

[Moonshade]

You're right I wasn't thinking about people selling below cost. But also like in the real free market, they won't be around long if they keep it up. I honestly haven't seen any of that on my server, but then I don't shop the brokers that often at this point. The few times I have, I've seen things way overpriced, not the latter.

[NerissaGoldenrose]

And if the prices even out at cost because there will be some people willing to craft for nothing more than experience, you don't have a problem with that? Because I assure you, there are people out there with that mentality. Just this morning I saw someone saying on another board that he was really happy he could make ANY profit, because that was like getting paid to exp.

I'd be VERY surprised if that happens. Why? Because there will be many more people who want to make a profit than who are crafting for just xp, and many of those crafting for xp are either using their final products themselves (as an artisan, I make alot of food / drink for xp) or just dropping them on a merchant at a slight loss. Those crafting for just xp aren't going to be flooding the market with anything. A few people will get "good deals" from them, but everyone else is going to have to pay what folks who want to make some money for their time want to charge, or go without.

As for undercutting... well, eventually those people are going to decide that it isn't worth their time to make items for minimal profit, and leave the market to people who want to make a reasonable profit. Not everyone you think is "undercutting" is doing so maliciously. They may just be using what they feel is a reasonable profit, and that you are "gouging". IMO, for example, 100% markup is perfectly reasonable, anything higher is too much. However, when I was doing heady kiolas in EQ1, I was charging slightly more than that, and I'm sure lots of folks felt I was "undercutting" the market. As a matter of fact, I was often bought out by resellers, and eventually stopped selling them because I didn't want to charge a higher price, and it bothered me to have someone else make a profit on my work.

Keep in mind that there isn't a single server yet whose economy is over a month old. It's WAY too early to consider anything stable anywhere. Give it time, and trust to the free market. It'll settle down eventually.

[Elyana]

There is underpricing and there is competitive pricing. I have ZERO problem with pricing my goods below the price of someone else and selling mine while theirs sit and rot on their merchant. However, I won't sell below cost or below a certain markup unless it is an OOPS (ie market is flooded with that item and they just arent moving so I want to get them out of inventory for more than my merchant sellback price so I have room to sell something that WILL move).

[Breez]

For every evil undercutter there is a evil Alchmist making 700% profit ;)

[Dafydd]

For every evil undercutter there is a evil Alchmist making 700% profit ;)
:D LOL

[Torval the Harvester]

You know what? You aren't entitled to sell at what you want to sell at. You are entitled to sell at what people are willing to buy at. If you insist you sell out every night regardless, then skip caring. Congrats, you are getting your price. And if you aren't then you have to consider that you might be over-charging.

If you actually expect every other artisan on your entire server that is capable of making what you make (actually half your server, the half based in your city) to enter into some kind of market-control agreement with you (which is, btw, illegal in the real world for good reasons) then you are dreaming. The system is fair because it evens out.

I don't believe for an instant that anyone is selling at a loss. That would be upsetting as well as stupid. I believe they are selling at a lower profit margain than you would care to make. Well, too bad. If it isn't worth your time to craft at that profit margain than do something else. No one else is crafting and selling the way they are just to annoy you, they are accurately valuing their own time in the same way and just happen to come to a different result than you.

I don't know how else to answer this except to say live with it. On a board filled with people complaining about folks who are over-charging (and why do I think you are either an alchemist or a person using alts? Obviously you never need to buy from anyone) I am honestly surprised you have the nerve to suggest you should be able to sell for whatever you feel like selling at and everyone else should follow your lead. The market is just. And it's making me quite a bit of coin, as well as you, so I think it's a bit much to suggest you aren't getting a fair shake just because you can't make as much as you'd like.

'Val

[Kbern]

That's why the good lord invented /afk. I don't sell at all when I'm actually playing, I sell when I'm asleep and at class, and I'm pretty sure the sellers I'm talking about are the same way. The selling system sucks if you have dial-up, in which case I probably wouldn't even be crafting, but it's fine for anyone with a constant internet connection.

No it really is not fine because you are assuming everyone has the same time as you.

I work full time, and live on the east coast. I play from around 6-7pm to about 10-11pm with eating or whatever in between.

As a rule, if I set up my merchant to sell before I go to bed, I have been disconnected sometime over the night by Sony. My internet is still connected, but I get booted.

If I reset my vendor in the morning about 8am, that leaves me maybe a two hour window before I am knocked off again for the patch.

SO basically my merchant can only sell after 11pm until he gets kicked off, only Sony knows when or why this is. Then another 2 hour window in the morning before patch.

I wish I could get back to my computer around noon each day to set up my merchant to be up, but I can't.

I don't sell below cost, but when I want to clear my inventory, and make a bit of coin more then the NPC will give me, I sell pretty low. I make a profit, and clear my bank.

People will only sell below cost for so long and won't take up a huge niche in the market. They make take some business away from you at times, but no one will be doing that for long.

Set your prices, hope your goods sell, and if not, lower the cost until they do. Right now there really is not any undercutting because who is to say who sets the price of an item.

[Ausversucht]

No it really is not fine because you are assuming everyone has the same time as you.

I work full time, and live on the east coast. I play from around 6-7pm to about 10-11pm with eating or whatever in between.

As a rule, if I set up my merchant to sell before I go to bed, I have been disconnected sometime over the night by Sony. My internet is still connected, but I get booted.

If I reset my vendor in the morning about 8am, that leaves me maybe a two hour window before I am knocked off again for the patch.

SO basically my merchant can only sell after 11pm until he gets kicked off, only Sony knows when or why this is. Then another 2 hour window in the morning before patch.

I wish I could get back to my computer around noon each day to set up my merchant to be up, but I can't.

I don't sell below cost, but when I want to clear my inventory, and make a bit of coin more then the NPC will give me, I sell pretty low. I make a profit, and clear my bank.

People will only sell below cost for so long and won't take up a huge niche in the market. They make take some business away from you at times, but no one will be doing that for long.

Set your prices, hope your goods sell, and if not, lower the cost until they do. Right now there really is not any undercutting because who is to say who sets the price of an item.

I also live on the east coast, never have a problem with getting kicked off overnight (not sure of your problem there). I do get the (everyday at 10am EST) kick every morning.

Why are they doing this every day, often they are only down for minutes and then no patch or even patch message explaining "anything" that they did.

[Irda]

I do not think it is someone undercutting for a loss. My bet is it is a person with a few alts and he/she make everything he/she needs from raw resources. So all he/she is putting in for is the what 6cp for the fuels. I mean really if you did everything yourself for a maple strong box it would cost less than 2sp to make. That why I HATE ALTS

[Kbern]

Maybe it is Guk, but everyone I know seems to get booted if they leave their trader on over night.

My buddy in Texas to my other buddy in Illinois to me in Florida are all booted by the morning. :(

[elphisto]

I much prefer the resellers who buy the cheap stuff then overprice it. The same people that bitch about not making enuf money on crafted projects, are the same people that bitch other crafter made items cost too much.

[Korin]

Ahh undercutting, the cornerstone of capitalism. I bet you the person is making a bigger profit than you are. If he's not using alts then he's got friends who are making all the components for him cheap. Its like the big retail stores vs the little corner store. You won't ever sell as much as the big guy but someone will still pay your price just for convience.

[Torval the Harvester]

I do not think it is someone undercutting for a loss. My bet is it is a person with a few alts and he/she make everything he/she needs from raw resources. So all he/she is putting in for is the what 6cp for the fuels. I mean really if you did everything yourself for a maple strong box it would cost less than 2sp to make. That why I HATE ALTS

Bah, the logic is still flawed. If I have an alchemist alt and I make a pile of stroma that I can sell for 50c per, then that stroma is worth 50c per. It's worth 50c per if I make something else with it, or if I sell it, or if I have to buy it from someone else. It's worth 50c. Period.

Now I take my 50c stroma and make something else. No way am I going to sell that item I just made without taking into account the 50c I could have gotten selling that stroma. It all goes into the equation. You, in turn, buy a stroma something for 50c. Same equation. Nothing has changed.

You get convenience and perhaps save a 20% broker fee a lot of the time by having alts. That's about it. Otherwise I'm just making money on an alchemist and then burning it on another character selling at a "loss" after I calculate what that wash is really worth. If that was the way I was working I would just have an alchemist.

Seriously, I understand the concern, but if you get over the idea that a thing only has value to the tune of what went into it you'll see this isn't nearly as big a problem as it seems. That logic never really holds, after all. If everyone though that way crafting would never even exist.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

As a rule, if I set up my merchant to sell before I go to bed, I have been disconnected sometime over the night by Sony. My internet is still connected, but I get booted.

If I reset my vendor in the morning about 8am, that leaves me maybe a two hour window before I am knocked off again for the patch.Oddly enough this happens pretty much EVERY night for me as well. About 1:30 AM cenral time the housing server on Anotonia Bayle ALWAYS seems to go down, almost like clockwork. Gioveit 5 minutes and I can usually get back in and reset up till the morning when the morning patch kicks me out again.

I wonder if this is their sneaky way of cutting down on their bandwidth usage by kicking off AFK merchants?

Frankly they need to do what UO does for merchants. Have an NPC you can hire to sell your wares in your room 24/7. That NPC takes so much coin to support every day simply for selling for you, usually some percentage of the value of items you have listed on him for sale.

For example: You buy a vendor and place him in your room. That vendor is up 24/7 and you stock him with items and price them. Say your total prices of items add up to 100 gold peices in sale value. Well that vendor NPC would require one gold piece a week to maintain (about 1% of the average value on your vendor over the week as a fee). Now 1% is purely illustratiev and I am sure they economy guys at SOE could easily work up a fair price % to make it viable and reasonable.

But THAT way you can ACTUALLY run a BUSINESS in EQ II. It worked like gangbusters in UO, who IMO still has the best economy in any game.

[Flendon]

Welcome to Capitalism Nicolaskl! Odds are they are not trying to run you out of business. They simply want to move there product just like you. This is how I set my prices in EQ1 (same applies for EQ2 though):
1) Check what the most common price is.
2) Check to see how many people are selling my item and the quantity they are selling.
3) If it is something I sell often I compare the qauntity they have today as opposed to yesterday. If they have more odds are they sold out and made more. If they have less either they sold a small amount or they sold out and made more so its hard to judge that case.
4) Estimate how many of the item I am selling will likely sell during the time frame I am going to be selling.
5) Set my price for maximum profit while still selling out.

Example: I am selling 20 silks (I'm using silks for my example because the items I can actually tradeskill don't sell well). I note 4 other people are selling the same silks. 1 person is selling 5 silks for 3PP, 1 person is selling 5 silks for 3PP, 1 person is selling 10 silks for 4PP and the last person (the local reseller who will remain nameless) is selling 200 for 5PP. I know that if I sell for 5PP the most likley event will be people will buy out the cheap sellers then resort to the "known" reseller, leaving me with no money.

I could set my price to 2.5PP and I know I will sell it all, but that isn't worth my time. I know that an average night of will move over 50 - 80 silks. I set my price to 3.5PP, knowing that those selling for less will sell first. Even assuming 1-2 more people selling 5-10 silks each logon I will likely sell out.

From Nicolaskl's remarks he is clearly making the most items. The others are simply trying to ensure their items will sell first. If people go to Nicolaskl he has to sell out his entire bulk before they can make a profit. That would just be bad business, so of course they sell for less. They can't compete with a bulk manufacturer otherwise. They aren't out to get you. They are doing nothing wrong. In there mind you may be price gouging. And you said yourself your still selling out, so get over yourself.

[Khalindor]

When i sell items that i make.. i always go close to 50% under everyone elses prices.. or to a price that i myself deem is price worthy for my customers, one that they will find juicy and very much acceptable. Sometimes i even sell for the same price that it costs me to make items.. now why would i do such a thing? Mainly cause its an item that i know others will have use for.. secondly cause its an item that i dont want to simply sell to a vendor.. not when they are in such a demand. Whats the problem with that? Am i greedy for selling so low? I cannot even comprehend how people who sell for such overprices.. can even call us who sell for alot more customer friendly rates.. are to be greedy?

As an example was the Tae ew shields back in EQ1 when they where the "thing" on the market, it costs like 2pp maximum to craft them.. if u farmed the blood yourself. And still people where selling them for like +10kpp each! That was amoung the greediest things i have ever seen. I started to mass produce them.. as in really mass production. Where i started first of all.. to sell them for 5k.. half of what others demanded for them.. and i still felt like i was skinning ppl for such a cheap item to craft. I sold hundreds of them.. i got threatened by other shield makers that i was ruining their market totaly, telling me that i was to die.. which i find rather redicilous. Some ppl even tried to "undercut" me as u plainly said.. so i lowered even more and in the end.. there was so many shields on the market that there was no demand for it anymore. Even if i sold them for 1kpp each.. it was still a 500% profit!

And i know that people will call me a greedy tradeskill "insert various bad words" many times more. Personaly, i would ask those people who truely try to scam others.. to really ask themselfs who are in truth, the greedy one?


I see no reasons why others try to sell for extrem overprices.. its plain greedy. I might be a "bulk" producer in various things.. but one have to take in consideration that i do also.. invest a great deal more time in this thing.. and tradeskilling is fun.. that is the primary reason why im into it. Not for the profit. And its always nice, to be able to make a customer happy with the items that i make.

[Deneldar]

At this stage of the game when we're all relatively low level, even the highest among us, I would be happy to recover the costs and just make exp. You're earning the right to a massive head start on the thousands of crafters to come behind you. Of course being able to make anything at all is n't easy atm.

[Sergio]

one thing i like very much about the eq2 system is that artisans actually make a profit from the start. in daoc you have to be very masochistic to start a crafter, because it takes months before you first see profits - up to then crafting is an investment weighing heavy on the purse.

so while i understand the motive of sometimes selling at cost (not below! that's heretical, insane and naughty) in order to help adventurers and just craft for the experience, i hope you don't overdo that.

[nicolaskl]

I bet you the person is making a bigger profit than you are. If he's not using alts then he's got friends who are making all the components for him cheap. Its like the big retail stores vs the little corner store. You won't ever sell as much as the big guy but someone will still pay your price just for convience.

I bet he's not. In fact, I know he's not. He sells for less, he makes less profit. He's not the big guy and me the little guy, trust me. The only way he'd be making more is if he was cranking out a lot more items, and since I'm higher level than he is I don't see how he could be. If he was making more items he'd have made more experience.

[nicolaskl]

I don't know where some of you got the idea that someone in the scenario was selling below cost. That's not the case.

And I'm not bitching about someone just selling for less than me. If that was the case I'd either match his price or not (in this case not, because I'm still selling). I'm talking about most people sell for 1g, one person sells for 80s. One of the 1g people gets pissed off and starts selling for 70s. The 80s person immediately starts selling for 60s. Another person joins in the fun and starts selling for 45s. The next day I get a tell saying my prices are too high because he can buy the item for 45-60s. Due to that ONE situation. I'm not talking about one person evaluating the market and deciding on a price that just happens to be lower than everyone else. I'm not talking about one person seeing what items normally sell for and going a little lower. I'm talking about MULTIPLE people continuously undercutting each other.

[nicolaskl]

I would be happy to recover the costs and just make exp. You're earning the right to a massive head start on the thousands of crafters to come behind you.

No, you're not earning a massive head start. All you would be doing is screwing the market and screwing your ability to make money. Maybe if you're making items that aren't in very high demand and you're too broke to continue crafting without selling, neither of which is the case in this scenario

[Deneldar]

You don't seem to get it Nico.

At the level we're crafting right now you're not going to make any serious money, all you need to do is build your exp for the big bucks at the end or maybe just the prestige as that's why some people do it. If I can do that without it costing me money I'm happy.

I'd venture to suggest that the richest people right now barely have 10pp. What's 10pp gonna be in 3 months time? Pocket change is the answer.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Moonshade]

So it's not a 'sell below cost' issue? In that case I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. If you can make a profit so you can keep crafting that should be good enough. If you want loads of cash in the bank and you're mad because other people aren't as money-hungry, well tough. Sorry to sound blunt, but the gist seems to be complaining that you can't make huge profits. I'd say enjoy whatever profits you can make and live with it.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I am not likely to ever sell any common component item for more than twice what it costs to make it, while considering the value of resources to be based of what the wholeseller gives for 15 :) (note I don't say never here)

If that means I undercut someone selling for 5X cost profit. I just don't feel too bad.

I don't frankly care if the market is buying at that price, I personally feel it is ripping people off :)

So if I am undercutting you... aww... too bad!

[nicolaskl]

So it's not a 'sell below cost' issue? In that case I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. If you can make a profit so you can keep crafting that should be good enough.

Nice EQ1 mindset. People SHOULD be able to make money off crafting. Why should making enough money just so you can continue crafting be enough?

[skipt]

When I goto sell I check out what the lowest price is. If someone is really under cutting I do eather 1 of 2 things. Go buy him out and resell at higher price or set my price at the next higher price. What I hate are the morons setting a price way over, like 1 gold for a 20c item in the hopes that some one will slip on the button and buy it when trying to examine it. I was there was a way to boycott those peeps so you could not see there wares :mad: :rolleyes: :)

[nicolaskl]

You don't seem to get it Nico.

At the level we're crafting right now you're not going to make any serious money, all you need to do is build your exp for the big bucks at the end or maybe just the prestige as that's why some people do it. If I can do that without it costing me money I'm happy.

I'd venture to suggest that the richest people right now barely have 10pp. What's 10pp gonna be in 3 months time? Pocket change is the answer.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

I don't think pp = pocket change. Look at the prices of the best houses and horses. I don't think those are meant to be pocket change.

[Flendon]

Nicolaskl we do get what you mean. Your the one not understanding that this is the way the world works. Maybe not every single corner of it, but a very large percentage. The areas of the world that are most likely to be playing this game anyways. Just because you think 1gp is the right price and you were first doesn't mean you get to keep your price there.

As my example was trying to point out if your making the most of a certain item the only chance they have to sell is to have a sale. They would be insane to charge the exact same amount as you and risk only selling a portion of their stock. So they charge less. Plan and simple sense! They don't want to sit in trader all day or night while you sell out and they don't sell anything. Where is the profit in that?

So one person will undercut you to make a profit. The next will undercut them. Why are you surprised by this? You clearly said that people selling for half what you are selling are still making a profit. That really makes you look like a greedy person mad because he has competition. Some people are in this for fun, some for profit. Those in it for fun are willing to sell for a small profit if it will clear their inventory and get them back to the forge/table with enough gp to keep playing.

[Kargan]

Notice how when you level and make new items that are few and far between on your server, you sell for high profit. Then as people catch up to that crafting level and more goods flood the market, the price point drops. That's called competition. Your only option to keep making large profits is to move up or out. Keep skilling and you will stay ahead of your competition and continue to gain large profit margins. Eventually you will max out your crafting skill and people will slowly catch up. In the meantime you would have gained infinitely more money by skilling up rather than arguing over 20sp in vendor mode at level 30.

And I think the highest levels of crafting will be difficult to achieve, so there wont be nearly as many people selling level 40+ goods as we now see selling level 20+ goods.

My 2cp.

[Serenya]

It's a balancing act to find the price that's high enough to be 'worth' the time the combines take, while low enough to consistently sell out. And of course, sometimes you don't really want to sell, so you price a bit high.... Last week I went into trader mode to sell a couple spells. Since I was there, I priced my tea and coffee (tier 1 drinks) at 60cp each -- which I thought was a bit high, but who knows. They sold in a heartbeat. Since the spells didn't sell, and since I had sold my own drink not just my extra, next time I went into merchant I upped the price to 1sp each for the tea and coffee. They still all sold rapidly, but that's probably as high as I'll price it, any higher just seems greedy. But I don't see any point in lowering my price if it sells out that fast.

[nicolaskl]

Nicolaskl we do get what you mean. Your the one not understanding that this is the way the world works. Maybe not every single corner of it, but a very large percentage. The areas of the world that are most likely to be playing this game anyways. Just because you think 1gp is the right price and you were first doesn't mean you get to keep your price there.



Apprently you don't get what I mean since that's not what I'm saying. I don't care if I keep my price at 1g, I'm saying the repeated undercutting is stupid and counterproductive and hurts the market. Which is a fact. You can tout that's how it always works and that's how a free market works but it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid and counterproductive and hurts the market.

[nicolaskl]

You don't seem to get it Nico.

If I can do that without it costing me money I'm happy.




You don't seem to get that this isn't EQ1.

[Laeelin]

Apprently you don't get what I mean since that's not what I'm saying. I don't care if I keep my price at 1g, I'm saying the repeated undercutting is stupid and counterproductive and hurts the market. Which is a fact. You can tout that's how it always works and that's how a free market works but it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid and counterproductive and hurts the market.

It helps the market

It hurts the seller and helps the buyer.

Markets are the balance between the two.

It's supply and demand, if they are stupid enough to sell for half the price that the demand is at then they sell out quickly(if your smart, you will buy them to resell.)

It's not hurting the market, its what a market is.

[nicolaskl]

It helps the market

It hurts the seller and helps the buyer.

Markets are the balance between the two.

It's supply and demand, if they are stupid enough to sell for half the price that the demand is at then they sell out quickly(if your smart, you will buy them to resell.)

It's not hurting the market, its what a market is.

I'm not using market in that sense of the word.

[Laeelin]

In what way is it diffrent?

[Deneldar]

I don't think pp = pocket change. Look at the prices of the best houses and horses. I don't think those are meant to be pocket change

You might not think so but you'd be wrong. We had a discussion in qeynos_traders (runnyeye) just last night based on what one guy should buy with his 6pp. He has 6pp already so what are we going to have in 3 months when all the powergamers are 50 and we're all making teir 4 gear and hopefully beyond.

I didn't say I was only making enough to continue trading either. I said I'd be happy with that. As it is I'm making good money without ripping people off.

As I said, don't sweat the small stuff, that's all it is right now.

[Flendon]

I'm not using market in that sense of the word.
A market is a market is a market. Sorry but no matter how you say it, its the same thing. Its not counterproductive to anyone but you :rolleyes:

Notice how when you level and make new items that are few and far between on your server, you sell for high profit. Then as people catch up to that crafting level and more goods flood the market, the price point drops. That's called competition. Your only option to keep making large profits is to move up or out. Keep skilling and you will stay ahead of your competition and continue to gain large profit margins. Eventually you will max out your crafting skill and people will slowly catch up. In the meantime you would have gained infinitely more money by skilling up rather than arguing over 20sp in vendor mode at level 30.
Just feel the need to play devils advocate here. While I obviously don't agree with Nico it is important to note that many classes are missing enough recipes to make advancment past 30 impossible. So outleveling the competition isn't always an option..

[Moonshade]

Well Nic, sorry but I don't have an EQ1 mindset, as I never crafted except for my own uses and also never used the Bazaar. My mindset is that if all the people undercutting are still turning a profit, then how can it possibly hurt the market. It doesn't hurt the seller, he/she still makes money. It certainly doesn't hurt the buyer, they get a better price. Who exactly is getting hurt? It's certainly much better than an over-inflated market where no one can afford any of the listed items.

[Goonie]

What a bad merchant does maybe. Proactively deflating the market and reducing your own profit certainly can't be tactics of a good merchant.


Well, if it isnt lowering below cost, then yes, it IS what a good merchant does. Since most people do the afk trader, then if you log on your trader and sell it for a few silver below their cost but a couple silver over your cost, then that IS a good merchant.
Why sell at a higher price when you can still make a profit and be competitively priced. From your post it seems you may not have a lot of experience in this neighborhood, but sergio is right also. Some people sell because of impatience.
Ultimately what will happen is people will be tired of being undercut and just bring their price down. No one in their right mind is going to sell for below cost. And if they do, dont worry about them, they wont be in business too long.

[Elyana]

I sure hope you don't make the mistake of opening your own business in RL...because you will join the ranks of the bankrupt if you don't learn flexibility.

Reality check:

1) Widget manufacturer_01 invents a widget. He corners the market and sells it for $100, even though he can make it for $50 ($50 profit).

Because no one else is making the widget and it is better than the gizmo it replaces everyone buys widgets for $100.

2) An_Entreprenuer_02 sees the business opportunity in making widgets. Enough time has passed that the original widget is no longer copyrighted. The entreprenuer starts making widgets cheaper than the original widget manufacturer because he did not have to spend time and money inventing it, he just needs to copy it and sell it. He can make it for half the cost ($25) and decides to sell HIS version of widgets for $80. ($55 profit)

3) A_Smart_buyer_03 sees there is a new source for widgets. He checks out the quality and there is no difference, so he stops buying from Widget manufacturer_01 and starts buying from An_Entrepreneur_02. He is saving $20 a widget and he is happy. The entreprenuer is happy too because he is selling the widget cheaper than the manufacturer AND making a higher profit margin as well!

4) Others see how well the Entreprenuer is doing and they too want a piece of the action. A_Large_Conglomerate figures their buying power will allow them to make widgets for only $15 cost to themselves if they manufacture in bulk. They decide to sell the widget for $75 each (profit of $60) and they quickly corner the market.

Because the entrepreneur and the original manufacturer cannot compete they have a couple of choices.

a) They can set their price lower, and make a lesser profit
b) they can go out of business and whine that the big guy bankrupted them
c) they can find new and better thingamabobs to sell that no one else has


Sound familiar? It should. This is pure economics 101 at work. It is what is happening in game as well. The first to make set a price. When others get to that level they set their price lower, because more choice means buyers will be able to get goods at a better rate. Finally the market will become flooded with vendors and in order to sell a MUCH lower profit margin will need to be established. This is the process known as going from a SELLERS market to a BUYERS market.

[nicolaskl]

Half you people aren't even reading or you're just not comprehending.

[nicolaskl]

A market is a market is a market. Sorry but no matter how you say it, its the same thing. Its not counterproductive to anyone but you :rolleyes:


There's different definitions of the word market, it case you weren't aware. I'm talking about ruining the market in terms of ruining the ability to make a good profit.

[nicolaskl]

Well Nic, sorry but I don't have an EQ1 mindset, as I never crafted except for my own uses and also never used the Bazaar. My mindset is that if all the people undercutting are still turning a profit, then how can it possibly hurt the market. It doesn't hurt the seller, he/she still makes money. It certainly doesn't hurt the buyer, they get a better price. Who exactly is getting hurt? It's certainly much better than an over-inflated market where no one can afford any of the listed items.

Yeah, you do, whether you realize it or not. Crafting to make enough to continue crafting is the EQ1 mindset (and they usually couldn't even do that).

[nicolaskl]

Well, if it isnt lowering below cost, then yes, it IS what a good merchant does.

So a good merchant makes less profit for the same amount of effort? You want to go ahead and explain that one to me?

[nicolaskl]

I sure hope you don't make the mistake of opening your own business in RL...because you will join the ranks of the bankrupt if you don't learn flexibility.

Reality check:

1) Widget manufacturer_01 invents a widget. He corners the market and sells it for $100, even though he can make it for $50 ($50 profit).

Because no one else is making the widget and it is better than the gizmo it replaces everyone buys widgets for $100.

2) An_Entreprenuer_02 sees the business opportunity in making widgets. Enough time has passed that the original widget is no longer copyrighted. The entreprenuer starts making widgets cheaper than the original widget manufacturer because he did not have to spend time and money inventing it, he just needs to copy it and sell it. He can make it for half the cost ($25) and decides to sell HIS version of widgets for $80. ($55 profit)

3) A_Smart_buyer_03 sees there is a new source for widgets. He checks out the quality and there is no difference, so he stops buying from Widget manufacturer_01 and starts buying from An_Entrepreneur_02. He is saving $20 a widget and he is happy. The entreprenuer is happy too because he is selling the widget cheaper than the manufacturer AND making a higher profit margin as well!

4) Others see how well the Entreprenuer is doing and they too want a piece of the action. A_Large_Conglomerate figures their buying power will allow them to make widgets for only $15 cost to themselves if they manufacture in bulk. They decide to sell the widget for $75 each (profit of $60) and they quickly corner the market.

Because the entrepreneur and the original manufacturer cannot compete they have a couple of choices.

a) They can set their price lower, and make a lesser profit
b) they can go out of business and whine that the big guy bankrupted them
c) they can find new and better thingamabobs to sell that no one else has


Sound familiar? It should. This is pure economics 101 at work. It is what is happening in game as well. The first to make set a price. When others get to that level they set their price lower, because more choice means buyers will be able to get goods at a better rate. Finally the market will become flooded with vendors and in order to sell a MUCH lower profit margin will need to be established. This is the process known as going from a SELLERS market to a BUYERS market.

Thank you for the explaining the incredibly obvious. I hope you don't go into business selling analogies, because yours is flawed for several reasons. And if you think the success of a business is based solely on how cheaply it sells its products then I hope YOU don't go into business, because you'll go bankrupt pretty quickly.

You people are missing the frigging point. And I don't need a junior high economics lecture, thanks.

[Moonshade]

So a good merchant makes less profit for the same amount of effort? You want to go ahead and explain that one to me?

Yes, because he makes more money than his competition who charges more. Why do you think discount dept. stores make so much money? They undercut the competition. Fairly simple really.

Edit: This is getting a little too heated. Sorry if I fanned the flames, thats not my intention. Let's back it down a notch and not get personal.

[nicolaskl]

Yes, because he makes more money than his competition who charges more. Why do you think discount dept. stores make so much money? They undercut the competition. Fairly simple really.

No, he doesn't. If you had actually read the thread (or even just the original post) you would know what I'm talking about. Since you haven't, feel free to quit posting.

[nicolaskl]

I appreciate this thread though, because it's given me some insight into why people have been repeatedly undercutting though they don't benefit from it (The only valid reason that anyone has posted so far is that some people can't leave their character AFK at night or while they're at work, everything else posted has been wrong or based on incorrect assumptions). So apparently it is due to:

1) Some people are stuck in the EQ1 mindset and would be overjoyed to be able to craft for zero profit.

2) Some people just like to sit in the dungeon and grind the same items over and over again so much that they don't care whether or not they get paid for it.

[Moonshade]

Sorry, but the couple posts I've seen here recently are getting way to personal, let's just say that we don't agree on this subject and won't be persuaded otherwise. Closing it down.