Tier3 vanguard workshop task result

[Arkestr]

I'm an Armorer. I got my first tier3 task from the worshop (10 vanguard guantlets). I bought the neolith tempers i needed for 2s (ouch). I need 2 for each plate, and 2 for each sheet. I need 2 studs per guantlet... i bought for 6s each from jewler (i assume so expensive because he had to buy neolith at 2s x2 for each stud).

So roughly, it costs me (not including fuel) 20s to make one guantlet (16s of that from JUST the neolith tempers).

So I make ten thinking maybe the reward from the tier3 task will cover these costs. 10 x 20s = 2g total costs roughly. My reward was 1.44g for the task.

Bottom line... until competition drives neolith tempers down to a reasonible 1s each, doing tier3 workshop tasks is not an option for skilling up.... unless you want to go bankrupt.

Just to vent a little...

Making the armor and selling to players appears to be the only option at this time, but Armorers are undermined by the fact that at level 20, classes get armor quests which result in comparable armor! So who is going to buy my armor which I have to sell for crazy prices (to cover the cost of all that Neolith) when they can get comparable armor FREE!

[Lange]

That's not bad, actually. That price on Neolith tempers seems more than reasonable. The cheapest belladonna root on Permafrost was 3sp last night. Gold and agates go for similar rates so paying 1sp LESS for the items they make is, well, a steal.

This is an issue of general market balance, not an alchemy issue.

[Arkestr]

...That price on Neolith tempers seems more than reasonable....

Well, I was just posted to let other armorers know what the reward is so they can decide (based on their expected costs) if its a good idea for them to do a workshop task or not. Don't want other armorers losing on the deal like I did.

But since you brought it up...

I guess 2s is reasonable IF you don't do the gathering yourself. I mean, I realize you gotta make money on the deal. But if you DO gather yourself (or have guildmates that give you stuff), then I think charging 2s for something that costs roughly 3c to make is a very UNreasonable markup percentage (my math skills tell me that is roughly 6600% markup). I wonder if I could sell my armor at a 6600% markup. That would be 20s x 66 = 13.2g .. hmm, don't think anyone is going to pay 13g for my guantlets. But if so, please send me a tell on Steamfont ASAP and I will give you a great deal... half off! only 6gp!!

I realize the market is unstable now. Tier3 raw materials are rare as most players are still in their teens. I think once the average server level is in the upper 20s, there will be plenty available and prices well (hopefully) get down to where Neolith is 1sp each and I can actually start making armor and doing workshop tasks again. Understand, that as an Armorer, I am completely reliant on the Alchemist. EVERYTHING I make requires metal bars. Every bar I make takes a temper. For heavy guantlets for example, I need 2 studs from a jeweler, who in turn needs temper. Total of 8 temper for each piece of armor ((1 sheet + 1 plate + 2 studs) * 2 combines each * 1 temper per combine). 2x8=16s just for the temper alone. The gauntlets sell back to a merchant for 12s, thus I would take a 4s loss selling to a merchant. Currently, it is impossible to level up an Armorer without either having an Alchemist alt, or a friend/guildy that will sell for 1sp.

[Kbern]

I think charging 2s for something that costs roughly 3c to make is a very UNreasonable markup percentage (my math skills tell me that is roughly 6600% markup).

OMG it costs us 6cp to make, not 3cp!!1!

:p

You gotta think it is time gathering also. The price will probably stabalize around 1sp each soon enough once more Alchemist get into the market, but I did have to laugh when I saw people selling gold, carbonite, agate, and belladonna for 2+sp each. I collect all my own, or get from guildies. I cannot imagine having to pay that for something that won't even sell for that amount.

[anvilcrawler]

Part of the problem may be, is that the tier 3 workshop quests give you 48 silver, for 15 collected items, so prices may very well stabilize at 3s per item, and cheaper for the more common nodal items (like wood).

[Lange]

Arkestr,

Have you ever tried to gather specific ingredients in Tier3? Even common ones? It is most certainly worth something.

A conservative value of the gathering time could be 20 mins = 3sp. This is what you would be paid to repeatedly do the 'Civil Service' quest for the guard in NQ.

Collect 20 gold/agates in Thundering Steppes sometime, time how long it takes you and divide the number of minutes by 140. That's a very very conservative estimate of how many silver pieces those gathers were worth and does not (of course) include the RL hassle of doing it nor any risk of death running around TS.

1 hour per stack = nearly half a silver per component FYI and I suspect it would take closer to two hours to successfully mine 20 gold/agates in TS. Trying to sell these for 2sp each is still a 100% markup but, again, I think this will change as prices stabilize.

And, again, this is only the most conservative estimate. A level 20+ player can make more than 3sp every 20 minutes just by fighting (mobs that give xp even).

[Lange]

Over lunch I realized that neolith temper is probably a 3-4 multiple combine, so you can drop the cost by that divider (assuming all pristine combines) but I still don't think 2sp is that unreasonable for the finished product.

[Nilty]

Well considering that tier3 wholeseller quests pays 48s I would consider the value of any tier 3 resorce as 3s20c

So cost of fuel + water + resorce/4 is about a 84c (16s80c for 20) cost for 1 pristine chemical. so your talking 3s20c profit per stack at a price of 1 silver each. Thats not a whole lot. up to 2 silver each is 23s20c wich is probally a lil high. Think 1.5s each would become a lil better pricing but we will need compition for that to come about.

Aso regaurdless of if they gather themselves or not a resorce has a value. if I didnt use it to craft for you I could use the same resorce and sell it so it has value.

[Lange]

Think 1.5s each would become a lil better pricing but we will need compition for that to come about.

I agree with you on both points. The 1.5s price would also correlate to a 50c price on raw agates/gold clusters. Currently these are going, as I said, for 3s+. Heck, even tier2 harvests are 80c+ on Permafrost and tier1s sometimes sell for 60c+.

Again, it's a problem with the overall market not just the supply of intermediaries. In an oil analogy.. The price of crude is high so the price of your refined is high and thus the marketers sell it high too. As a refinery, sure you could try to enter the exploration business yourself but this involves a lot of work, cost and capital (the startup capital in the analogy would be getting your mining to >90). For whatever reasons you might choose to purchase the crude you refine. If that price is high, so is the oil you sell downstream.

[Irda]

Tier 2 items for 80cp is a what the wholesaler pays for a gathering quest.

[Torval the Harvester]

To suggest that just because I harvest something myself it has no value is idiotic. I'm sorry, but I have no other words for that logic. By that same token the Sword of Massive Uber Leetness that drops off Godly_Quest_Dragon834 has no value because it simply dropped off a creature. Of course the item has value, in both cases.

If I have a belladonna root, and I can sell that belladonna root for approximately three silver, it doesn't matter one bit whether I harvested it or bought it. It's worth three silver. And so whatever economic formulae you may apply to what can be created with that belladonna root absolutely must accept that the ingredient is worth three silver.

I'm sorry your workshop task is broken. I agree that is an utterly absurd paymest for the items made. But you also must take into account that carbonite vanguard gauntlets, if they are made to a decent standard of quality, should be worth easily 60-70silver on the open market per, and I'm being conservative here. If you are selling pristine it goes up. Whether you agree or disagree with all of this is not to the point, but for certain it isn't the economics of the temper that's the problem here.

'Val

[BlaseBlase]

It's really just a matter of the workshop tasks not being worth the effort. Even when you can get your hands on all the components and do the combines yourself on your own or through an alt, it barely covers the value of what you produced.

This is true at all tiers.

A workshop task for tier1 finals yields 9s. That's 9s for 10 final products(36s for tier2, quadrupling, etc.). Most of the time, these are products that could be sold on the open market for around 4 times as much as you receive.

I suppose the idea is that the cash is just to cover personal expenses and the real reward is the increase in society status. However, the increase in society status is very, very small. I checked my outfitter society, and it's 20,000 status to go from 1 to 2. Any task you perform is only worth 100 points, regardless of the tier, from what I've seen so far. That means 200 tasks need to be completed just to hit level 2. Essentially, it will fall into the hands of the lowbies to level societies, because no high level tradeskiller will be likely to waste valuable resources and time on something that will result in virtually no profit for them.

It would be nice if they could adjust the rewards for workshop tasks a bit. As it stands, the only tasks really worth doing are the wholesaler ones.

[Arkestr]

...As it stands, the only tasks really worth doing are the wholesaler ones.

IMO, the harvest tasks should either...

1) be removed all together and replaced with crafting tasks. Its not a harvest society, its a crafting society. Sell your harvested items to the crafters. The raw materials are given "NO VALUE" for a reason... so players would sell them to players and not merchants. Providing a method to circumvent this mechanic (see #2), and use an NPC to convert raw materials to cash undermines the crafting system and the flow of raw materials to crafters.

2) remove the ability to just trade items to your buddy one at a time so you can go harvest a ton and come back and do several quests while standing in front of the wholeseller. I've been asked several times by strangers... "hey buddy, can i give you this stack and you give back to me one at a time?". I used to say yes, but my new answer is, "Sure, for half of your reward". Doing the quest this way is surely not what was intended, and seems like an exploit to me.

[Liandra]

1) personally i like the wholesale tasks. They set a baseline on the economy that i think is reasonable. 80c for a tier 2 raw. 320c for a tier 3 raw. Prices may rise above that level due to supply and demand, but they wholesale tasks ensure there will always be some demand.

2) Moorgard has already addressed this issue on the Official EQ2 forums. Basicly this is working as intended. Someone still has to go out and forage/gather all the raws. /shrug

[Lange]

Well, that's fine and good but if we accept that as the baseline cost, then we have to accept the accompanying mark-up on intermediate and finished goods. If you accept 320cp as a baseline on tier3 harvests, than no one should be complaining about neolith temper costs..

/the two go hand-in-hand. That's my main point.

[Fyrewynd]

IMHO there are some discrepancies with the quest rewards that are causing the problems. If indeed 320 coppers is the intended pricing point for the Tier 3 raw components then the Tier 3 finished good quests for the societies should have a reward increase to them as well.

That being said there is another facet to the issue being that allot of the items that should be selling to players will not sell with any potential profit margin to players when they can quest very similar items for free and gain experience at the same time.

I personally believe that the wholesaler quest for Tier 2 and Tier 3 items should be moved into the Tier 2 and Tier 3 Societies. In my Opinion these quests were set up to allow crafters a means to also make a profit ebullient to the adventurer classes. Currently anyone can do these quests. Most of my available time is spent crafting. Whereas an adventurer is in the wilds gathering components as they adventure and gain experience. That to me is a bit of Double Dipping.

Fyrewynd.

[Korsis]

I personally believe that the wholesaler quest for Tier 2 and Tier 3 items should be moved into the Tier 2 and Tier 3 Societies. In my Opinion these quests were set up to allow crafters a means to also make a profit ebullient to the adventurer classes. Currently anyone can do these quests. Most of my available time is spent crafting. Whereas an adventurer is in the wilds gathering components as they adventure and gain experience. That to me is a bit of Double Dipping.

As an adventurer myself, I assure you that you cannot get good xp and harvest at the same time. In fact, the best xp is usually in places (such as dungeons) that have no resource nodes at all. You *can* go out and kill and harvest at the same time, but you'll end up doing neither as fast as you could if you focused.

IMO from an "immersion" standpoint, it makes more sense for the adventurers to be the ones out braving the wilderness harvesting materials and the crafters to pay for them back in town.

[Torval the Harvester]

As an adventurer myself, I assure you that you cannot get good xp and harvest at the same time. In fact, the best xp is usually in places (such as dungeons) that have no resource nodes at all. You *can* go out and kill and harvest at the same time, but you'll end up doing neither as fast as you could if you focused.

IMO from an "immersion" standpoint, it makes more sense for the adventurers to be the ones out braving the wilderness harvesting materials and the crafters to pay for them back in town.

I don't disagree, and I'm well into tier three crafting now while may harvesting skills are barely only adequate for tier two, and only that because of the recent change in required levels. Point is I'm happily skilling away while buying everything I use, and trust me if you are at all good at manipulating a market it is incredibly easy. You want to talk double dipping? I make quite a bit of cash while crafting for xp, so I can't complain.

That doesn't change the fact, however, that workshop quests are borked. Trust me, they are. Right now there is absolutely zero motivation to do them. And that does need to be addressed. Imagine a dungeon in a fully implimented zone with less xp and less financial reward than anywhere else in the world. That's the whole workshop angle right now, sadly.

[Korsis]

That doesn't change the fact, however, that workshop quests are borked. Trust me, they are. Right now there is absolutely zero motivation to do them. And that does need to be addressed. Imagine a dungeon in a fully implimented zone with less xp and less financial reward than anywhere else in the world. That's the whole workshop angle right now, sadly.

I wasn't disagreeing with that part. :)

I felt cheated when I only got 36s for my 10 new brand new iron spears that I made. I wasn't even going to think about handing carbonite vanguard over to their grubby little hands.

[Darklight]

Well considering that tier3 wholeseller quests pays 48s I would consider the value of any tier 3 resorce as 3s20c

I wrote it on another post, but people need to realize that you cannot simply price these resources based upon what wholesale societies are paying out, because by themselves these resources does not warrent any "fixed" value. For example, at Tier 2 wholesale societies pay you 12 sp for 15 resources AND the time it take you to gather them. Now, how long does it takes you to gather 15 same resources? 30 min? 1 hr? Then you got to factor that into the equation. If you do that then you would realize that these resources aren't worth what wholesale societies are paying. Now of course demands can drive some resources value up higher than other as it should be, but don't base your price on what wholesale societies are paying because that is not accurate. Remember, you can't simply sell these to the wholesale societies and there are some works involve before you can get that reward(gathering, transfering, etc...). Leaving out the amount of works it takes to get that reward simply mean you put too much value on the resources themselves.

[Vorvox]

I am an up and coming alchemist on the nektolus server
As far as I see it the silver you get from the wholesaler quest is your profit. If I make 1380 copper from the sale of tempers or washes that the 15 resources took to make I have made my profit. If I make more copper, even better. But I want at least the 1380 (the cost of turning 15 resources into tempers washes). Not sure what it is for the tier 3 but the same idea is behind it.

[Korsis]

I'm sorry your workshop task is broken. I agree that is an utterly absurd paymest for the items made. But you also must take into account that carbonite vanguard gauntlets, if they are made to a decent standard of quality, should be worth easily 60-70silver on the open market per, and I'm being conservative here. If you are selling pristine it goes up. Whether you agree or disagree with all of this is not to the point, but for certain it isn't the economics of the temper that's the problem here.


On Crushbone (Freeport), there is currently a glut of gauntlets on the market. There can be a few reasons. 1. The relatively common quest-drop Plate Gauntlets of Hate from Fallen Gate that have basically the same stats as pristine carbonite vanguard and can be maxed many levels earlier. 2. The first (easy) armor quest is for gloves. 3. There are a ton of armorers just getting to 21-22 and this is basically the only thing they have to skill up on.

So as a result, I can currently place pristine vanguard carbonite gauntlets at 30s and watch them sit on my trader for hours. The lessened XP for shaped is irritating. If I could get workshop quests for pristine gauntlets (at the same reward) I would seriously consider doing them.

I suspect that the problem is mostly number 3, and that once people move on it will lessen. But for now, it's a bad place to be.

[Xaveimander]

I personally believe that the problem, economically, isn't the crafted goods at all, but the frequency of dropped tradeable items that don't leave the economy. Fledgling crafters prices are set by their compedetive equivalents in dropped equipment. Basically, the only way there will ever be a stable economy is if dropped equipment is 95% no-trade.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Your best bet to counter this problem is to find an Alchemist on your server willing to do combines. I have at least 5-6 contacts I work with on AB that will make me things I need for free as long as I bring them everything for the combines.

If I need pommels, caps or studs I can give my jeweler the aclhemicals and bars to make them. I did this last night and he had me make him spikes in return.

If I need alchemy supplies I know an alchemist who I supply with raw materials and cash to cover all his fuel and water and he makes me what I need. In return I supply him with spikes and weapons for free when he needs them.

And so on. Get in a guild or make a trade association where all the craftsmen support each other. When I go gathering in Thudnersous Steps I gather EVERYTHING and when I get full packs I head to Qeynos and drop off what I cannot use to these other people for their use. Likewise they to me. This keeps us all stockes in basics and we supply each other with services to keep our production costs low.

It really is the very best way to level and craft.

[Korsis]

I personally believe that the problem, economically, isn't the crafted goods at all, but the frequency of dropped tradeable items that don't leave the economy. Fledgling crafters prices are set by their compedetive equivalents in dropped equipment. Basically, the only way there will ever be a stable economy is if dropped equipment is 95% no-trade.

I have quested two pairs of gloves that were comparable or better to tier 3 crafted (I am wearing one). I have seen a vendor bought pair that was much worse. As of adventure level 26 I have yet to see a pair of gauntlets better than pristine carbonite vanguard drop. Personally, I feel that the opinion you espouse here is the paranoid suspicion of crafters who don't adventure much.

And regarding leaving the economy, yes they certainly do. I sold my level 20 armor quest gloves to a vendor for 26s after unsuccessfully trying to sell them to other players for 30s for 2-3 days. My inventory space is valuable, and if something takes more than a week to sell, it's probably headed to the NPC vendor.

[JuneauCB]

Armor Quest items are attuneable so once you attune them, you can't sell them. That is another advantage to tradeskilled items; when you have leveled past your need for them, you can sell them to lower level players or vendor them.

[slasherp]

That's not bad, actually. That price on Neolith tempers seems more than reasonable. The cheapest belladonna root on Permafrost was 3sp last night. Gold and agates go for similar rates so paying 1sp LESS for the items they make is, well, a steal.

This is an issue of general market balance, not an alchemy issue.

What do Bella'd roots have to do with Neolith Tempers??
You need a metal cluster to make Neolith Tempers (Agate or Carbonite)

Anyway, fair market value of T3 raws is around 3s
An Alchemist can make 4 (if pristine) Neolith Tempers using 1 raw.
Even if Alchemists sell the Neolith at 1s each, they make a profit.

I seen prices range from 1.5S - 5S per Neolith.

Fortunately the Alchemists I do business with charge me 1S per Neolith with me supplying them the Raw materials.

I just don't understand why anyone would pay more then 2S per Neolith.

[Lange]

Yeah, I 'mis-remembered' (as our President would say).. Rough agate and gold are typically even more silvers than Belladonna, though.

Fortunately the Alchemists I do business with charge me 1S per Neolith with me supplying them the Raw materials.

I just don't understand why anyone would pay more then 2S per Neolith.

This is the same argument we've had in a dozen other threads. He ripped you off, in fact, because you could have sold the raw for 4.25sp. You're giving him 5.25sp per Neolith, in essence.

But if you're one of the people that places no value on harvestables, I think we have to agree to disagree.. There's been too much pointless debate on this already. Each side sees its view as correct and neither is bending.

EDIT: 4.25sp is the average price of gold clusters on Permafrost. The 'fair' value of harvests, as I see it, is still 3.2sp - meaning you only paid him 4.2sp if you use the wholesaler-quest-based value instead.