Why is making weapons so much harder than armor or tailored items?

[Ixnay]

I have seen this issue mentioned in various threads by frustrated weapon makers, but wanted to discuss it more specifically in this forum.

I want to choose the weaponsmith path because it seems everyone and their brother is becoming armorers, with others becoming tailors. There is virtually no high end weaponry being sold on my server. So, if weaponmaking is the longer, harder road, that is ok with me, because I prefer the road less traveled.

I am a Gnome and chose the Gnome metalworking racial tradeskill bonus at experience level 18. This allows me to craft at 5 points higher than my level would otherwise allow me to reach. My outfitter level is 18 now.

My strategy for success and to make a name for myself in my craft is to only produce pristine quality weapons. This brings me to the point of my post.

I can make items using tailoring skill above my level and get pristine quality, everytime, based on my now intuitive understanding of how the buffs/offsets work in the crafting process. I can also make armor items such as the chain mail bp and legs, and get pristine quality, every time.

But try as I might, when I attempt weapons several levels beneath mine (and all my skills are maxed, plus remember I am crafting with a 5 skillpoint bonus), it is extremely difficult to get a pristine weapon. In fact, the best I can get is between a 1 in 2 to a 1 in 4 pristine ratio when crafting green weapons.

It seems impossible to maintain durability in weaponsmithing, and when I am able to get a pristine it is based on luck rather than skill. In both tailoring and armor making, I can usually succeed on an item with durability at 100%, but when making weapons, this seems impossible. And when I do get a pristine weapon, often I can't even see any durability left in the pristine bar when progress is finally maxed - I just got lucky that time.

I am greatly concerned about this, and need to decide whether it is worth pursuing this craft or whether I should just choose armorer instead of weaponsmith as my specialty - because this doesn't seem worth it.

Am I doing something wrong, or is there something wrong with the entire weaponmaking skill? It seems that the available crafting buffs/offsets for weaponsmithing are lacking an essential statistic/ability that is present in the buffs we get for armoring and tailoring.

Please comment or share your experiences.

[Beran]

I'd have to agree with your points, for the most part.

I've found no buff/offset combination that routinely adds or offsets durability loss. When I get a Pristine, it seems luck. And the best method I've found so far for achieving a Pristine is to push Progress as hard as I can, ignoring Durability loss in the hopes that I can get the weapon finished BEFORE Durability loss drops it from Pristine.

Even the buffs that supposedly prevent or reduce durability loss don't do much, compared to the same buffs for Armoming and Tailoring.

Perhaps those buffs need to be checked by SOE to determine if they are "working as intended".

[Korsis]

Numerically, there isn't a way to reliably increase durability, so you cannot hope to wait until a weapon gets close to the bottom of pristine and then "fix" it the way you can a backpack. You need a new strategy. Some combination of 1. blast out the progress and finish the item before you lose too much durability, or 2. start retarding the durability loss in advance, since you know it will be an issue later.

Since you can't really "fix" weapons, you need to always have an eye on increasing progress ASAP. This makes vitrify a very bad choice except in emergencies.

I normally start out with hardening/indurate and watch how the crafting is going for a bit. If it's down the chute before crude, obviously restart. If it starts going down the chute after crude, then switch to strengthening/hardening/indurate. That'll drain your power fast, but it keeps progress relatively high. If you don't have any failures for the first few rounds, you might try tempering/hardening/indurate to hurry up and finish, or even tempering/hardening/anneal if you're feeling frisky. As always, keep an eye on your power bar. In particular, look at how much power you have left, and how much progress you have left, and think about how much you can afford to spend right now.

And sometimes the RNG just decides that you lose. :) But I have a much better success ratio than 1/2 on green weapons (more like 4/5 on green and 1/2 on white), hopefully my experiences will help you.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

And the best method I've found so far for achieving a Pristine is to push Progress as hard as I can, ignoring Durability loss in the hopes that I can get the weapon finished BEFORE Durability loss drops it from Pristine.Allmost right. I made level 20 last night and am now a full weaponsmith and the three new skills you get at 20 are, in a lot of regards, EXTREMLY dissappointing. NONE of them restore durability. NONE.

ONE (Modling) is, according to the description text, an EXACT duplicate of one of the level 2 metalworking skills we all got (Anneal). Use a little power to gain a little progress. The one BIG improvement is the upgrade to our 'disaster' skill (the one we use to prevent the most serious 'white hot metal' events and looks like a glowing metal bar with sparks coming off it). 'Set' uses a small amount of durability (maybe 3-5) and adds a LARGE amount of progress. Using the proper combination of skills on iron bars I was able to get about +98 Progress and -7 Durability almost every time on a normal success (that was including use of the +5 Durability restoring buff 'Indurate'). I Was able to EASILY make blue con weapon recipes that I had serious difficulty with before but I did not test is EXTENSIVELY. On weaponry I only made a single short sword and a single stilletto but both came out pristine and pretty fast.

I DID make about 90 Iron Bars and 30 Iron spikes and they all completed pristine and in record time. The new level 20 abilities are all LOW or NO power cost. Using 'Set' combined with'Anneal' and Tempering I was doing pretty well on anything pre level 20.

I reserve the right to re-evaluate these abilities on tier 3 crafting though. At 1.5 silvers PER Neolith temper on Antonia Bayle (none of my guild alchemists are 20 yet and the only supplier I could find on AB was charging that much) I am in no financial shape to even start trying to make Carbonite ingots from the ore I have.

So it seems as if the metalworking/weaponsmithing system may still be very viable but a very DIFFERENT 'game experience' while doing it than armor or other skills. Weaponmaking will probably still be less realiable post 20 than other skills but weapons seem to, generally, require less components as well.

Oh, also, we get recipes in our level 20 book for the leather pommels we need and the leather stretchs to make them as well for our weapons. I was still getting level increases making Tanned backpacks and leather armor last night and am currently at 105 Tailoring. While I did not get new Tailoring 'buffs' at 20 unless the new leather handles are rediculously harder to make than all the leather goods I have seen in game so far it seems we will not be totally dependant on leather makers for our hilts and that our tailoring skill is not yet frozen. At least not at Trade levels 20-30. Still no studs or pommel recipes though so our dependancy on Runemakers is still there, as is our dependancy on the wood working classes for wood staves to use as hafts and handles.

I'll post more tomorrow if I level tonight into 21 and let you know what I find on the new recipe book. I am told that third tier items actually have a MUCH larger Durability field in the pristine section, so in theory it should be more forgiving to durability loss than previously. Mind you this was told to me by an in game friend who is a carpenter and not personally verified on any metal items so take it with a grain of salt. You've been warned.

(BTW I am very sorry for not using the exact names of the 'buffs', I meant to write them down last night but forgot. I will do it tonight and come back and edit this to put the proper terms in).

edit: Updated post with actual names of the 'buffs'.

[Belwolf]

i just made level 24 lastnight and will tell you it is saddening to see a shaped weapon :o i never worried about making pristine iron but carbonite i want it soooo bad and finaly got a pristine carbonite weapon WOOT :D

i have tried to mix and match the buffs but i found that the 20+ ones seem the best useless you are getting skillups and my metalworking maxed. i know just how ya feel but forget going for the 4th bar because forged is all ya need to make to actually get a return on your investment FINALLY. now i am gonna try to get a pristine forged assault axe, wish me luck because i'll need it lol.


Belwolf Surblade
24 Weaponsmith
22Berserker

[Gryberd]

Hi guys, level 29 Weaponsmith here
Dont be so worried about making some forged weapons they sell well. I sell forged for around 70 silver a piece and about 1/3 of what I sell is forged, they con orange at a lower level and so you can target a different crowd with them. You can make some money and some happy customers with forged. Not that I dont make a great deal of pristines as well, but dont sweat the forged, sell them at a markdown and make some money.

Gryberd
Level 29 Weaponsmith Guk server

[Ixnay]

No Neolith for sale on Blackburrow/Freeport - none - all I can do is look at my recipe book and combine more iron, even though I'm sitting on stacks of carbonite ore. I've tried /ooc'ing everywhere, no luck.

I've done very well trading and selling tier two tailored/smithed items and would have no problem paying well for what I need, even a couple silver a temper if I had to.

Any suggestions?

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

OK I was all set to come back and edit my first post with appropriate names and then realised I forgot my list of metalworking buff info at home (I post from Work, shhhh).

But I did make a LOT of weapons last night and a guildmate made 20th and chose alchemist and so made me 12 Neolith tempers. So I was able to get some more feel for how the new skills are working in.

That said, the way to go on bars and extremly simple green recipes or low 'total progress value' items is to use +progress buffs (along with 'Indurate', a buff that to me is totally and completely indispensable on all metalworking items of any kind). Especially when your skill is far over the skill level requierd for the item in question. With an overweening skill level your success rate and exemplary success rate is large enough that large boosts to progress more than make the item fast enough to not worry about that durability loss.

COUNTER to that is making white con or blue con recipes or ANY ACTUAL WEAPON of any con. I found that the way to go for me was to use Vitrify (the teir 2, no power skill that adds +durablity but makes a hit to progress) combined with INDURATE. While Vitrify seems to be a -20 to your production value the combination of the two seems to totally negate standard durability loss on a normal success, ergo it adds 10 durability when used and gives you a net of 0 lost durability and 30ish progress on a normal success. Not great but definately fabulous when you consider the durability loss issues in weaponsmithing. This combination allows a much greater level of safety margin when making items with LARGE progress totals since it negates any durability loss when you get an average success. On an excellant success it ADDS ON/BACK durability.

Using those two and the new 'MODLING' buff I was able to reliably make pristine on all the combines I did last night on Carbonite items at level 21. Of the 12 tempers I ended up making a Pristine Carbonite Spike, Sheet, Edge, Crossguard, Assault Axe and the ingots needed to make them all at pristine as well with 2 Pristine Carbonite bars left over in the bank. If I knew anyone who could make Carbonite Pommels or Studs I would have done more weapons but I don't and therefore the ONLY weapon recipe I could make on my own at 21 was the Assault Axe.

You may ask why use the small progress for small power buff in that combo? Simple: Power was regening fast enough using that and the small -power for small + durability that I was using almost none. Therefore I had a very large power reserve I could use in case things started to go wrong and I needed to spam ALL my -power for +progress buffs several times to try and finish faster.

Improtant Note: Weaponsmithing DEMANDS PATIENCE and attention. The key, for me, in nearly every single case was knowing when to totally quit the production attempt if things went bad fast before the first tier item was created.

It looks like the Crude tier on carbonite/weapon items is an EXTREMELY large amount of progress value. Definately far larger than on the bars for example. I think the Cabonite bars were a grand total of maybe 500 progress to make with about 150 of that in the crude tier, where as I think the Crude level of the Assault axe alone was about 500 progress to fill but then the succeeding levels were only about 100/100/150. What that means is the largest portion of your combine is in the crude area and if you can manage to get to the end of crude with no or extremly little durability lost you have a very good chance of making it all the way to pristine.

Key though is quitting out when things look bad. I attempted the Assault Axe 3 times before I actually made it. The first two times I had several disastrous rounds right off the bat on the pristine durability bar before making any real progress and I quickly quit, regened my missing power and tried again. All you lose is the coal when you do this, which is infinately better than losing components or makign a piece of crap.

NOTE: Quitting in this fashion has to be done BEFORE the crude result name on the item you are making becomes highlighted! Once that lights up your commited, you have MADE something and the components are expended so watch carefully and make sure you quit if you need to before that point. Once it lilghts fight like crazy to finish as best you can.

I did this on everything and once I started watching for and maximizing good starts and used both Vitrify and Indurate along with Modling I started having much better results. There were still some really hairy times but all in all I achieved a moderate measure of control.

The one real complaint about the level 20 skills is the middle level 'buff' of the three, that looks like a shiny steel bar in the fire, called 'Toughen'. It gives a small amount of progress for a small reduction in success rate. No power cost but given weaponsmithings OBVIOUSLY greater negative event rate and general difficulty (losing durability on weaponsmithing is a LOT more drastic than on any other trade I have done and even high skill tends to have a lot of failure rounds) any reduction in success rate WHATSOEVER for only a small progress increase is totally useless at this point. I can see using it on things I totally outclass such as green recipes to power create masses of items for no power, but frankly you can do that better with the new 'Vitrify' upgrade that allows LARGE progress increase for low (about 3) durability loss.

Pristine CAN be done. It IS difficult and challenging but with player skill and patience and a bit of experimentation and undersanding how all three tiers of skills can be used, you can make things. Just how much RELIABILITY there is remains to be seen. So far I am batting 100% for the carbonite I am making, but as you have read above that is not a whole lot yet.

Once I have more items fashioned in carbonite I will post again, which could be several days as I need to farm a large amount of tier three resources at this point, which will take time, not to mention getting our guild alchemist to make them for me into tempers and washes.

Edit: Updated the post with 'buff' names as appropriate.

[Beran]

Ok. After much experimentation and such all ,I've found a combo that works for weapons over all, actually 2 combo's.

To POWER thru a recipe, ignoring durabilty loss, use Modling/Toughen/Set. This will generally net you a -13 Dura / +98 Power. If you don't get more than 3 Bad roll, or more than 1 Very Bad roll, you will likely make a pristine weapon. The problem with this is that your chances of not getting 3 bad rolls are small, because Toughen lowers your Success Chance ( i.e. gives you a larger probablity of a Bad/VeryBad roll ).

The other way I've found is to use Vitrify/Set/Modling. This gives you a Standard roll of -8 Dura / + 66 Power. Modling has a small power cost, but can be worth it.

Another Option is to use Modling/Indurate/Set. This gives you a -7 Dura / + 58 Power regularly, if I recollect properly. Slower than the previous, which can be iffy on White Con recipes.

Just mah inputs!

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

I am gonn have to disagree with beran. My combo choice is definately Vitiurfy/Indurate/Modling for most blue/white con recipes. Failure rates in challenging recipes combined with how large the crude tier progress bar is makes powering through with + progress alone, at least to me, too dangerous. I have tried it and frankly losign durabilty every 'round' and then losing more to bad/unsuccessful rounds is just too risky from what I have experienced.

I have had EXCELLENT success with the combo listed above and it has the great benefit of not losing ANY durability on a normal round. Once you get past the crude stage and have not lost any durability then you can throw in set as well. The large progress boost and minor durability hit can speed up the production enough to finish the last two to three quality levels in speed and safety depending on how your rounds go.

But for 'challenging' level final combines I would not try to'power' through the item. More often than not our going to lose too much durability and end up not baing able to make a pristine, which to me is the whole point of the entire thing.

[Beran]

I see your point, but Vitrify/Indurate/Modling is just as power-consumptive as Vitrify/Indurate/Set. Plus you go at a slower pace, with more chances for a bad roll. The reason to use Set over Vitrify is simply to offset the power usage by increasing the Progress. This combination is gives you 2 to 4 puffs (rolls) less during the combine process. The fewer puffs, the fewer chances of a bad roll.

The Durabilty loss is neglible comparing Set to Vitrify in the above combo's. You gain 9 Progress on an average roll, while losing 1 durability on average. And if your careful on the timing and hit them in the right order ( Set first is my choice, as the events that call for it seem to be ( just subjective, no objective proof ) the most common.

However, on many recipes, I've still found the power mode to be the best choice. On first passes, however, I will use the slower methods of Set/Vitrify/Modling or Set/Indurate/Modling.

Pristine is always my goal, unless it is one of the known bugged recipes. Those go to my guildmates. Forged and any extra pristine get sold at what I hope is a reasonable cost to cover expenses on the open market.

[Gryberd]

Just an fyi
at level 30 you get a brand spanking new set of +durability counters, they are sweet, and finally give you the ability to bring things back once you have lost a bunch of durability.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Gryberd any chance you can post the details from them that you get with examine?

For Example:

Tier 1
Anneal: +Small Progress, -X Power
Tempering: +Med Progress, - 2X Power
Hardening: +Small Progress, - small Durability

Tier 2
Indurate: +5 Durability, - X Power
Strenghten: +? Success Chance, - 2X Power
Vitrify: +5 Durability, -20 Progress

Tier 3
Modling: +Small Progress, - X Power (note this read identical to Anneal but with a higher con color)
Toughen: +Small Progress, -Small amount of Success Rate
Set: + Large Progress, -Small Durability

In all the examples above I am nearly positive Power Value X is the same. Power Value 2X is exactly that, double whatever he Value of X is for you.

In places where I did no have exact numeric values I put in the text description from the examine of that ability.

[Rimmbok]

Personally I have no problem banging out Pristines. I use Strengthening/Modling/Set as my main three, watch durability closely and use Strengthening/Indurate/Vitrify to stabilize/boost Durability. Yes, there is partial luck involved, but barring the big unlucky streak I'll do pristines about 75-80% of the time on an Even level con weapon. The key is don't let Durability drop more then 25% of the pristine bar. If a big durability hit comes when it is below 50% of the pristine bar you probably aint going to get pristine. But if you act quickly when it starts to drop with a couple Strengthening/Indurate/Vitrify then you can bang out pristines fairly easily, just don't be affraid to burn a full bar of Power.

[Ixnay]

Good news.

I got level 30 last night. Let me assure you that the new level 30 buffs/counters balance us out nicely.

All 3 of the level 30 buffs/counters increase durablity, and actually work!

Using the new buffs last night, I was able to regain durability almost every time it began slipping and end most combines with near full durability.

IMO, level 20 to 30 weaponsmithing is boot camp, and getting through this phase may be harder for us than any other class. But get through this, and you will have developed the skills needed for the next level and will truly feel a sense of accomplishment and power when you get to level 30 and are able to use the new buffs and counters for the first time.

Weaponsmithing now works like I expected from the beginning. I am so glad I stuck this out, it was well worth it!

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

Thanks a ton for the look forward Ixnay. Any chance you can post the new skill descriptions from Examine and any hard numbers you may have seen during creation process?

ADDING BACK durability will be a godsend which shouold allow me to do 100% pristines in the future (as opposed to the 80-85% pristines I do now). I HATE failing combines hehe.

[Ixnay]

I will try and post the names and descriptions of the new buffs/counters tonight. As for numbers, I don't use them. I'm a Gnome and only stand as tall as the lip of the forge, and have to look at the ceiling or in third person to see them, which really messes me up while crafting. Rather than acting based on the numbers, I buff or counter based solely on visual durability and progress bar movement and any critical failure icons I get.

The serious $$ combo for Tier 4 weaponsmithing seems to be using Tier 3 Set (+ Large Progress, -Small Durability) with the new Tier 4 + Medium Durability, - Small Power buff. Using this combination, I was generally able to get rapid progress AND maintain durability through the entire crafting process. In the event durability slipped halfway in the pristine bar, I backed off Set and could generally stabilize and even increase durability (while also increasing progress, just not as fast) using the previously mentioned Tier 4 buff, the Tier 4 buff with the white icon (I think - but am not certain - it is +small durability, -small power), and Tier 3 Modling.

Before, doing weaponsmithing felt like trying to drive a Yugo with a flat tire on the freeway. Now, it feels like I'm in a very expensive brand new luxury car.

I'm now extremely pleased with the overall job SoE did with weaponsmithing. It really feels like the whole thing has come together and is working as intended based on good design.

I also believe that having to suffer through Tier 3 as I did, having to work hard for every pristine and not having the luxury of shortcuts or being able to be lazy about anything, made me intuitively familiar with all the capabilities of my trade class and has made me the best possible crafter I can be.

If they fix the broken recipes, weaponsmithing is seriously a home run. As I said, I really feel like I made the right decision by choosing this class instead of armorer.

[Gilfalas Elaandrin]

I'm a Gnome and only stand as tall as the lip of the forge, and have to look at the ceiling or in third person to see them, which really messes me up while crafting. Try Crafting in third person view. You can rotate the camera angle around to see the number very easily that way and I personally find it far more entertaining to watch myself (and those around me) actually smith than to stare at the forge continually.

Not everyone is comfortable doing that but once you get used to it it is pretty fun.

As for the rest of your post, now you got me all excited for hitting level 30.