Node sharing?

[Syera]

Ok every single rock I mine, every arbor I forest, etc, someone always runs up and starts foresting/mining/etc. Its just the way it is, and I've rarely heard complaints.

So this morning, this guy starts yelling at people for "resource stealing".

I told him that that's just how the game is, and he said "you know its rude, they are going to fix that and it will screw people like you" or words to that effect.

Now,
1) I wouldn't mind if they locked the resources, but as long as they aren't, they are open to anyone IMHO.

2) why would this screw me?

and
3) how do you guys feel about it? I mean, I don't like it when I finally find a badger den only to have 3 other people pile onto it, but its just a fact, getting mad and yelling at people for "resource stealing" doesn't make sense to me. Just because you are "farming" that node, I don't think gives you some exclusive right to it, nor do I think I am rude for also farming that node (or vice versa, if I'm on a node, while I may cuss at you in my head for coming along, I don't really feel that I have any ownership, I just wish you were elsewhere :) )


Thoughts?

I'm sure there's other threads on this, but I couldn't find them.

[Wolfysins]

In one of the Denmother's guides, she suggested that it was rude to start harvesting if someone else is clearly already on that node. So that's the policy I've been following and advocating with others.

If I see someone start harvesting on a node I'm already clearly on, and they do it more than once, I send them a polite tell suggesting that I'll stay off their nodes if they stay off mine. If they think that's stupid, then I don't respect their nodes anymore, either.

[Goonie]

Actually, there is a very good debate going on here. (http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?t=887)

[Dafydd]

Tir 2 + resources. I never double harvest. No need plenty of resources.

Tir 1 (The grind zones) Varies.
If I just get to a zone I avoid double harvesting noeds and if I find that I'm not getting very many nodes I move to another instance. As the new arival I show respect to those already there.

If I have been harvesting in an area for over an hour and new people arrive. I harvest everything I can weather they jump on the new pop first or not because Ii was camping that area first. I feel its the new guys job to find a uncrowded area. However I understand how hard it is and I don't ask him to leave.

I'f I have been harvesting for 3+ hours in a zone. (Well at this point I'm usually just trying to finish of one or two skills.) At this point I focus on the type of resource I need most and do a little bit of clean up. Not so much clean up as to denigh others what they need but enough that others in the area recognize me as a harvester. I will usually run up to others doing harvesting pause a moment then move on.... This way they see that I am acknowledging them as a harvestor and they see that I could have takine 1 of the three from the bnode but that I am allowing them to have it all. This takes almost no time compared to trying to type with them.... Chances are they like me feel that engaguing in long conversation interupts harvesting time. Its the unspoken acknowledgement and respect that becomes mutual.

Thats my 2cp worth and as you see I sometimes feel it is apropriate to double harvest nodes and sometimes it is inapropriate.

[Goonie]

My personal preference in tier 2 is that people clear the nodes. If you only take 1 or 2, then the next person only gets the leftovers. If you clear it, then it eventually respawns with full resources. In tier 2 there isnt much fighting over the resources, So there is plenty of time for it to respawn in full. However, if someone comes out and only gets the leftovers, then it forces them to stay until respawn.
Again, this is just my preference.
Tier 1 is a diff story, much more people harvesting, and fewer resources.

[Astarelle]

I was annoyed the first couple of times this happened to me, but now I just shrug it off and move on. My only regret while running around in tier one zones (and I will eventually have to do this again for trapping) is that I didn't read up more on tradeskills before I started the game or I would have done this on the Isle of Refuge more.

The competition is high in tier one zones since almost everyone there is working on leveling their skill. But the node sharing has only happened to me a couple of times out in Antonica. I shrug those instances off as well since there have been times when I wasn't standing right on top of a node while harvesting it.

[Shimshon]

Yes, it is true that the game mechanics allow you to pounce on the nodes being harvested by others, but as others have pointed out, it isn't a universally accepted practice. I disagree with the philosophy of "node sharing," which seems to be the PC way of saying "voraciously collecting anything I can get my mitts on whether anyone else is interested in it or not." Though I disagree with it, there are no controls inherent in the game to back me up. However, just like in real life, there are community consequences.

My personal policy is that as I run around gathering resources, if you get there first, you can have it. If I get there first, I would expect the same courtesy, and if you don't extend that courtesy to me, I can see that you chose to play by the free-for-all philosophy. I'll give you a freebie the first time, understanding the it may not be wholly intentional, but the second time you are done. You go on my list,which means i will utterly disregard your presence henceforth. You start harvesting a node, and if I'm interested, I'll ignore the fact that you are there and go ahead and get mine. I'm not going to sell to you, buy from you, or group with you. I realize that this is a fairly aggresive viewpoint to take, but quite frankly I don't feel any remorse for treating those people with complete disregard, as it is there choice to act in a way that they know will annoy others, and my response is simply giving them their due.

Will that have any effect on them? I'm sure it probably won't but that's not what I'm interested in. I haven't the authority, patience, nor interest in mandating how others act. It isn't about them, it's about how I choose to act, and that involves doing business with others who choose to act similarly. I'll never /ooc anything about it, no /rude or nasty tells, i'll just completely ignore you, the same as I the jutting-brow knuckledragging crowd in real life.

(on second thought, just so that last sentence isn't taken out of context, I'm referring to those who chose to act like Neanderthals).

[Syera]

See this is the part I don't understand.

The FFA folks seem fairly laid back. The "my node all mine only mine" folks are aggressively NASTY about the whole issue.

Instead of understanding that there is two sides to this issue, and that the FFA folks feel that it is, well... FFA, and that they expect you to harvest whatever nodes you find just as they harvest whatevernodes they find. So instead of accepting that there are two philosophies, and that they are very different, the "my node" people that I've run into are nasty. They are rude, they yell at people, and they say things like what you just said, Shimshon


You start harvesting a node, and if I'm interested, I'll ignore the fact that you are there and go ahead and get mine. I'm not going to sell to you, buy from you, or group with you.


Frankly, and I don't mean to be nasty myself, I find this attitude completely ridiculous. Now, if there's a person out there that FFAs your nodes, but then yells at you when you FFA his, in other words someone who's just acting greedy, then I can totally understand your attitude. BUT, if the person truly is FFA, both with "your" nodes and "his" nodes, consistently, then you are basically saying that anyone who disagrees with your philosophy is shut out of your game world.

I don't understand this atittude at all, and so far, I've only seen it on the "my node" side.

[Shimshon]

It's not an attempt to be rude, it's simply a matter of choice, which is the defense of the FFA perspective. I choose to refrain from behavior which is known to annoy others, and in doing so, I enter an implied agreement with others not to annoy each other. The person that jumps on a node that someone else is harvesting is likely aware of that situation, but chooses to not participate in such social niceties. I leave them to do as they choose, but that action asserts that they are willing to allow others to do the same, and they enter an implied agreement to allow whoever to harvest the node they are on at anytime. If they are agreeing to allow that, then I will honor their choice, allow them to butt in on what I am harvesting, and return the favor when they are harvesting something I am interested in.

That part of my argument doesn't perscibe any behavior, I'm simply saying that I'll leave you alone if that's the way you choose to harves, but if you choose to FFA, then I'll do the same alongside you, but I'll never jump in on yours unless you jump in on mine a couple times. The other part of that is that there are over 20,000 people on my server, and there are plenty of people who follow courtesy in harvesting that I can do business with, and if someone doesn't like the way I play, I don't have to grovel for their business. I'm never going to be rude to anyone who disagrees with me, I just don't prefer to play by those guidelines.

I agree that my choice to not trade with aggressive FFA'ers is aggressive itself, but I don't make it public, I just find another source. For example, if I am making some quills and need temper, and see in the broker window that 2 people are selling the wash/resin/temper I need, and that person was following me around and jumping on all the badger dens I was trying to skill-up on in the Peat Bog, I'm gonna buy from the other guy. He can do his own thing, and I won't say anything nasty about it, I just prefer to support those who prefer courtesy over "everybody else does it," and until someone does something to explicitly show me that they choose that philosphy, I will assume they choose courtesy.

I'm pretty insignificant, but I do choose where my coin goes, and if given a choice, I prefer to pay fair price to someone who goes about their business courteously. It's the same reason I choose not to use the cross-scribing exploit, but instead buy the stuff from appropriate classes, and make choices about who's group I will join based on the attitude they have displayed through their words and actions. If someone is flaming and cursing in /ooc, then wants a group to take out some gnolls, I'm not gonna respond. The similarity with aggressive FFA harvesting is that the person has made a choice to engage in behavior they know will annoy others. I actively avoid being rude to others, and prefer the company of those who do the same.

People can do what they want, and I'm not gonna tell them they're a jerk, or tell anyone else, but I'm certainly not going to actively support them if I can choose to assist another instead.

[Goonie]

The FFA's have no reason to be rude or nasty as they think it is ok. The "my node" people have a reason to be because thats what they believe.

In tier 2 zones, you wont find alot of rude 'my node' folks for two reasons:

1) they are used to it and are yelling behind their PC instead of taking the time to send a tell or /ooc. (if you do that, you miss out on your second attempt since you will be done before they are)

or

2)there are simply much more nodes available. if you had this many nodes available in the smaller tier 1 zones, it wouldnt be near the issue that it is now.

[Shimshon]

Upon reviewing my first post, it occured to me that I wasn't exactly clear in what I wrote, and perhaps came across as a little harsher that was intended. Specifically, when I say someone goes on my list, I mean specifically my short-term memory "people who annoyed me today list," which in any harvesting session, is likely to be a person or too. I left that a little open earlier, and it may have been understood to mean that I would deny someone a group at level 35 cause they harvested the last severed elm one day in Oakmyst 6 months ago, which i agree would be petty and absurd, but I see nothing absurd in simply keeping my mouth shut if someone /ooc for a group to kill Rotweed, and I recognize them as the guy that followed me around node-for-node for 20 minutes as i tried to get those last two skill-ups in foresting. I also don't think it is too ridiculous to go to the next person on the list of 10 different merchants selling eolith tempers if that was the same guy.

Chances are, when I wake up tommorow and log back in, I'll forget all about anybody who annoyed me the day before, but it is entirely possible that someone could stand out by repeatedly being a pain, whether it be harvesting, public channels or whatever, and if they are a significant enough annoyance that I remember them in the long term, then yes, I might pass on grouping with them at level 35, not because of a harvest 6 months ago, but for a pattern of behavior that got on my nerves consistently over the last 6 months. That's not likely to happen, but possible, as I'm sure many of us had a person or 2 in EQ1 who we recognized as such after seeing them many times.

[Syera]

I choose to refrain from behavior which is known to annoy others, and in doing so, I enter an implied agreement with others not to annoy each other. The person that jumps on a node that someone else is harvesting is likely aware of that situation, but chooses to not participate in such social niceties.

Let me set you straight here. Until I got yelled at this morning about this issue, I had no idea the issue existed. FFA was the way I saw everyone playing, and it seemed reasonable given the game mechanics, so that's how I've been playing. Then this morning, this guy starts screaming at people in the zone about "ninja'ing" "his" node. That's the first time I was aware it was even an issue for some people.

So don't assume that everyone knows you have this issue. I've been playing EQ1 for 5 years, I respected camps as long as they respected mine, etc. It never occured to me that people would feel proprietary about "their" nodes when the game mechanics clearly (to me) indicated FFA type rules, and I saw pretty much everyone going that route.

As far as the rest of your statement, I'm ok with what you are saying. You said it more strongly the first time. What you are saying and what I'm saying is about the same thing. I am fully FFA. I will jump on your nodes, though I won't follow you around, and I'm perfectly fine with you jumping on mine. I'm also perfectly fine with you taking a "put your money where your mouth" is approach, and only buying from people that follow your rules.

What I find upsetting is the guy this morning, after I calmly explained my view point, put me on ignore because I disagreed with him. Now obviously he was a highly immature individual, but the idea that I'm going to get shut out from a bunch of groups because I disagree (within the rules of the game) with an opinion, even if its the majority opinion, is a little disconcerting.

I think SOE should step in and fix it, either make the nodes locked, or make the nodes a single item node.

Or, alternatively, eventually the player community will settle on one approach or the other.

From what I see in game, despite polls on this site to the contrary, FFA is the more common approach.

[Shimshon]

I can see the point about not everyone seeing what I refer to as courtesy as the "accepted" way, and I also definitely agree with the ignore list thing being a bit immature. I was on EQ1 for 18 months, and never put anyone on ignore, and havent' in EQ2 either. (though perverse curiousity about where a flame war would lead may have had something to do with that) I certainly don't think that a single action, which I may interpret as rude, should condemn someone to the ignore list or eternal flaming.

[Deneldar]

Either way would work fine provided everybody did it the one way. If everyone did FFA you would get precisely the same ammount of "turns" in the long run as you would if everyone didn't FFA. The conflict only occurs because there's no fixed rule.

Not FFA'ing might seem noble but it causes the exact same problem as FFA at the end of the day.

Basically it's up to the devs to lock them or come out and officially say all nodes should be treated as FFA. Middle ground is always dangerous ground.

[Jin]

Come on, this shouldn't even be a debate here...The nodes are ruffly the size of the human char (my char is human).

In RL if you have ever been berry picking (even if you haven't you can relate) would you, apon seeing someone at a berry bush ALREADY picking the set number of berries off the bush proceed to walk up to the same bush and start picking, shoulder to shoulder;knowing in a minute or two there will be another bush?

We aren't talking tree size here, we are talking about a small shrub with, basically in terms of the game, 3 berries on it.

I think you know my feeling on the subject, if you wouldn't do it in RL (staying in the realm of harvesting, not bashing stuff over the head with club) don't do it in game.

Just because its a game doesn't mean RL courtesy goes out the window because behind the char is a real person at that virtual shrub.

IMO

[Myrelle]

I find it really really rude to jump onto someone else's node (or mob or camp, in non-lock games). If someone is already harvesting I don't go after a node.

However if someone won't respect this and keeps stealing off my nodes I will return the favor because otherwise it's just inviting them to take advantage of my manners.

If both of us run for it at the same time then it's FFA.

[shaijin]

Just because the game allows it, doesn't mean that it is not rude. There is no law that prohibits jumping ahead of a pregnant woman to grab the last seat on a city bus causing her to stand for the trip. But, you are still a miserable piece of garbage if you choose to act that way. Of course, jumping on a resource node in a video game isn't nearly as rude, but it is still not very courteous. It really breaks down to some people believing that you are entitled to whatever you can grab and others who believe in treating people with respect.

But, in the much bigger picture the problem is completely temporary. There are just too many tier 2 nodes for this to be a problem for the serious trade skiller. Also, as you go up in trade level, there are fewer players competing with you for the same resources.

It seems there is more or less of a consensus that FFA is the best way to do it because it cannot be regulated otherwise. My take on it is that its up to all people to treat others with the respect that they would expect from someone else. There is nothing that I or the game will do to stop people grabbing off of the same node as me but generally these are not people I care to interact with. So, ultimately, its you choice whether you feel whether havesting from a node someone else is already havesting is appropriate behavior. But, you should know that there are some people like me who will be offended whether everyone else is doing it or not. Perhaps those people will represent the tell that you never recieve in response to your request for X interim product in the tradeskill chat. It might be something to keep in mind.

[Syera]

Come on, this shouldn't even be a debate here...The nodes are ruffly the size of the human char (my char is human).

In RL if you have ever been berry picking (even if you haven't you can relate) would you, apon seeing someone at a berry bush ALREADY picking the set number of berries off the bush proceed to walk up to the same bush and start picking, shoulder to shoulder;knowing in a minute or two there will be another bush?

We aren't talking tree size here, we are talking about a small shrub with, basically in terms of the game, 3 berries on it.

I think you know my feeling on the subject, if you wouldn't do it in RL (staying in the realm of harvesting, not bashing stuff over the head with club) don't do it in game.

Just because its a game doesn't mean RL courtesy goes out the window because behind the char is a real person at that virtual shrub.

IMO
Again a bad real life analogy. And yes, your feelings on the subject are obvious. Those of us who believe FFA is the way to go obviously see it quite differently. You think we are being rude, we think you are being greedy. Neither side is really totally right, and the fact remains that the game mechanics (in the same game where kill stealing is prevented through locking) the nodes aren't locked.

Just because you think its rude doesn't make it so.

Just because you think a node should "belong" to the person that gets there first doesn't make it the "law".

Try to see both sides of the situation, it will help you not get too frustrated with those of us that believe the nodes were intended by the game designers to be FFA and that it is not rude, or impolite in any way to FFA the nodes.

[Moonshade]

Closing this one down. Please put your node sharing comments in the thread here (http://www.mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/showthread.php?t=887) . Thanks! :)