Damage from tradeskills

[Flendon]

Ok this is my first post here. I want to say how much I love the EQTraders site. I don't know where I would be without it. As this is my first post let me also say that I haven't had time to read all the posts here so if someone has already brought this up sorry. Anyways my point:

I saw on the EQ2 Official posts someone brought up the discussion of damage/death from a critical failure in tradeskilling http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=2726
I think I recognized one or two of the sigs that matched people from this site, but I would love to hear your opinions on this. I personally think it would add some spice to the tradeskilling that I already expect to love.

[Trinkett]

Hmmmm, get burnt at the forge, your potions explode on you, prick your fingers with your needle, and the cabinets you were trying to make just collapsed on you! Hehe, could get interesting :)

[SirTower]

Moorgard talked about a dev friend of his getting incinerated using the forge one time, but that was a very old post. Rumor is that they removed tradeskill damage from the system a while back, but again, we have no real information either way.

[smackem81]

I strongly dissagree with dammage from tradeskills. Here is a couple of points...

-As an artisan I chose this path because its "safe" lacking death. We dont go outside the city adventureing, so why should we die like an adventurer.

-Its punishment on top of punishment for failure. You loose components for not making it corectly, and you die. Prices of said compoents could be very expensive or hard to get, just loosing that could be enough. Its not like when an adventurer dies he looses a helmet or anything in the process

-Every time we fail we loose money, money is esentialy the way we level. The closer and closer our bank accounts near zero the less and less we can buy components to skill up with. An adventuer dosent need money to kill a creature to level up, we need money to make that recipie and level up. Death is just an unessiary burden beyond that.

-(speculation based upon eq1 model) Killing a "blue con" as an adventuer would allways yield experience. Making stuff that wasnt trivial in eq1 didnt nessisarly give skill up. That element of not nessisarly getting skill up every time could carry over.

-Death in itself could be meaningless. So we loose a shard... ok we respawn back in the city and walk on over to the forge we just died at. It just amounts to being a nusiance.

[Moonshade]

In the above mentioned forum thread I didn't see any SOE reps posting so this is all supposition. I know that for the adventuring types, the challenge of the game will be the sense of danger from fighting monsters and possibly dying. For artisans, the challenge will be skillfully using our tools to make our items and possibly losing both our components and experience if we fail. As the devs have mentioned, this won't be a simple combine any more. They will most likely be some form of 'mini-game'. Any of you who have used a CC oven in ATITD will know what this means :) . If this is the case, we should definately get more pride from creating things because it'll be a lot less random than EQLive. I do like the idea of fatigue from crafting, thats more realistic, but death? Seems a bit pointless.

[Flendon]

I guess I was a little vague. I don't really agree witht the death as it is pointless. I meant more just the damage, but I do see your points that it is pointlss without risk of death. It would be nice if you could see these things happen even if they had no ingame effect? What about just cinematic animations? Maybe showing the forge flare up and singe your eyebrows off? Burning your hand on a hot cookie sheet when you forget the potholder? The chemistry set you are working at bubbles up and the fumes make you break out in warts and green skin? Then all that day as you walked around town players and npcs would comment on your eyebrows or warts. That is the kind of things I'm really thinking of? I don't think it would happen but it would be so awsome!

[Drucilla]

The day you posted this Flendon, hubby *did* die from tradeskilling. I was dieing to say that! :D

[Niami DenMother]

Currently, one of my favorite animations, is when a daydreaming failure is triggered on the stove. Black smoke spews out of the pots and pans, the door to the oven opens and more smoke belches. :)

Thankfully, 4 of the tradeskill events can cause damage to item quality and only 2 cause damage to you IF you don't do a successful counter to them. If you're alert, and watching what events are happening, then death is not something to fear.

Haven't died yet, even when crashing in the middle of a crafting session, but I've gotten fumble-fingered enough to hurt myself pretty solidly. :)

[Ngreth Thergn]

I have died :) just once, but it did happen. A while ago though.

[Oakraven]

ok lets see

group wipes out in a fight in a mob camp, by the time the group gets back the fight has completly respawned and from all accounts if your in reach of the mobs who are camping your shard the mobs are agroing on you all over again, and aparently some times the shard is just unretrevavle because its now a full spawn and your in the penalty for not haveing a shard.

die in a traidskill instance, and you just go pick up your shard.


and from all accounts Dieing from a traiskill failure takes multiple failures in succession now because you were AFK.

[DeWeasel]

Currently, one of my favorite animations, is when a daydreaming failure is triggered on the stove. Black smoke spews out of the pots and pans, the door to the oven opens and more smoke belches. :)


I also like the clouds of smoke when you fail on an Alchemy combine.

And I haven't actually died yet, but have come close when not paying attention! :)

[Dalren]

Since the NDA is lifted, I will comment =).

You can take damage from tradeskills, only if you are not paying attention. You see, when you are making an item, events can occur in the tradeskill window such as day dreaming, wrong ingredients, ect. When these events occur, you use a skill to get rid of these events, such as snap out for day dreaming. These skills cost power/health, but they cost such little power/health that you regen it all in like one tick anyway, and it prevents all damage, so the risk of death when doing tradeskills is very minimal.

[Grimina]

It is most hilarious to stand there crafting away and hearing the idiot at the loom next to you crying out in pain every 10 seconds before giving a death gurgle. Followed about 2 minutes (load time) later by "/ooc WTF! How did I die?"

Before I figured out where on earth the counteracts were at, I was VERY upset with crafting. But once they are hotkeyed, the only way you'd die is (as others have said) if you really aren't paying attention.

[Niami DenMother]

Yes, *most* of the folks that were dying were doing so because they either didn't know about the beta forums and the sticky crafting FAQ, or didn't want to go read. (Had one person get REALLY rude when they demanded to know why they died. After telling them that there were now negative reactions, and the means to counter them, I pointed them to the forums, since that a) had a list of the events and the counters and how to use them, and b) I was in mid-crafting session and trying to live and make something high-quality. They basically told me that they'd never read a forum in their life and nobody was going to make them do so now. I bit my tongue before I told him "have fun dying, then" {roll eyes})

Of course, there were also some things in the beginning that caused deaths beyond our control, but that's what beta is for. :)

[BuzWeaver]

I’ve not died ‘yet’, but I’ve found myself responding to a tell or speaking in guild then suddenly I Day Dream, fail to click Snap Out and boom 65 Damage. Went on talking and had a Miss Measurement, didn’t hit Work With It and took 70 dame, nearly died, LOL.

[javalin]

you actually had time to talk to him den mum i find i cant hoild a conversation and try to get decent quality items tween the bufss and the counters no time for typing till its over unlees its a very quick one sec or hold on ec t....


and i have only ever died once i was at the JC table and was not watching my health from using the buffs and looked away for a sec and poof daydreaming got me or was it dristraction

[Niami DenMother]

After 5-1/2 years of dealing with rabid tradeskillers (and often more than one at the same time), say rather, that I am *used* to trying to answer questions while attempting to play, tradeskill, etc. I tend to get munched a lot when that happens, but I still attempt it. :O

[Flendon]

Poor DenMom /comfort

[Oakraven]

I saw someone refer to the Harvestable items on the ground as Druid Dropings when I was sitting in with Chris earlyer,(it was a Paladin, Chris is a 23 swash) he tried to explain to him that what he was seeing on his screen was used in Traidskills and the guy was saying well its sitting on the ground so obviously its trash that noone wants and he could not see why anyone would fill up their inventory with that trash.

:eek:

The guy also kept blowing HOs so eventualy the Druid sent him home and ungrouped him, after that they were making their HOs and even one man short they were clearly doing better with making the HOs than they were full group and not makeing them.

[Flendon]

He obviously never played much EQ1. Groundspawns are important enough there. Especially for a Paladin or a tradeskiller.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Someone asked....

HO = Heroic Oportunity :)

[Homeslice513]

I have came close to death but never died.

It is very hard to chat and craft I have learned :P

Also wanted to make a statement regarding whoever said the group that had someone messing uo HO's and doing better with one less getting them. Soloing they make a lot of difference to me as a scout. I can crush creatures so much faster with them than when I just use regular moves. HOs really let you take on that little bit hard mob. :)

[Thoraz]

So now tradeskilling has become an all-time sport...very simliar to the 'whack-a-mole' that you see at every circus.

I for one just gave up on EQ2 and my girlfriend as well.
We both thinks this new tradeskill system is STUPID.

So I have enjoyed very much being here on these boards for almost 4 years now, but I guess we won't be continuing. Best of luck to everyone.

We have many choices now and SOE just made a mistake with EQ. I am in JTL (Starwars) beta and expect to try out WoW beta shortly as well, so realistically there are many choices for folks this year.

I loved the new graphics and the multitude of quests in EQ2, but now that tradeskilling is an activity sport, the new game 'lost it'.

I am curious. How many other folks don't like this new system? I see some interested responses and wish all you folks the best with the new system.

/shakes his head.

[Valquiss]

/shrug

You can call the process meaningless and absurd, but you can make that claim about any thing you do in EverQuest (I or II)...come to think of it, the same can be said for any game....come to think of it, the same can be said about everything we do for recreation....come to think of it the same can be said about life, period. (I knew where that was going, but I wanted to make a point).

How is it fun to tradeskill with interactive events and things you need to react to? I don't know, because it's fun. I can't justify it, it just feels like something I might like to do. Don't know if you noticed, but Whack-a-Mole is pretty popular too, because it's fun. Why is it I like throwing a mezz at exactly the right time and saving the day? Who the heck knows, it's just fun. Why do I revel in the ability to throw a round ball covered in the skin of a dead animal (or a good replication of it) almost but not quite directly at my friend and hope that I can get it past him without him hitting it with his round stick? I can't answer that, but it's keeping an entire country parked in front of their televisions right now. Don't even *get me started* on what television is all about.

Why do I strive for a big fancy car with more horsepower than any urberite could ever conceivably use when a car half as expensive would do? (I don't, actually, but that's not the point, some do). Why do I want to wear silk shirts sometimes rather than perfectly decent cotton? What's this crap we call "art" all about?

I don't have a clue. People like stuff. People enjoy certain things. It can always been phrased in ways that make it sound ridiculous, but that's just another way of saying "I don't understand or enjoy this." Well, I'm sorry you don't. I don't get a darn thing out of cricket, even though they're still throwing balls at people and trying to get it past their sticks. I just don't get it. I hope you enjoy the games you'll be playing and get out of them whatever people ever get out of these things. But I won't try to explain why this game interests me as though I owe you an explanation about the fundamental mysteries of life. It just does.

P.S. Upon rereading that came out harsher than it was meant to, in reply to a basically reasonable post, but I've never considered these questions answerable, and it bugs me that people (though rarely this politely) try to belittle what other people enjoy doing by making it sound absurd and meaningless. It's just too easy to do that about anything.

[Homeslice513]

What is it you don't like about it Thoraz or what is it that seems stupid to you? Also I was wondering if you and your girlfriend have tried it firsthand yet as well?

I am just curious on this myself. I think the system is pretty cool although I am not crafting anymore until the new changes go in. I don't really see it being much different than any other crafting system other than actually being active in your crafting and more than likely seeing less afkers crafting.

It is still about using components, combining them and making an end item. You just have an event thrown in here and there.

[Flendon]

You may want to wait until the new changes go through and maybe even the game goes live, with even more changes, before making a choice to give up on this.

[Drucilla]

Sounds like some new, exciting changes on the horizon. I agree.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Plus, there is about to be a major revision to it that may change ones opinion... who knows :)

[Thoraz]

I do understand what they are trying to do. (...it filtered into my dense brain overnight.)

I understand the concept of tradeskilling as a class, where your tradeskilling actually gives you level experience.

But, for myself, I do like to daydream while I craft. I have been crafting over in SWG for the past 6 months and really enjoy (call me strange) trying to figure out what components I could be using to craft a better item.

I had hoped that in EQ2 there would be a simliar concept to being able to fine tune your items. Crafting has always been a thinking process and now it is being turned into an active process along with the thinking part. hmm.

I understand the grind got boring in EQ1 and I had hoped to see some of the carry-over on ideas from SWG, but that is not to be.

I will check in later, prior to release and see what this 'tradeskill' class evolved into through this beta process. I spend/spent about 50% of my time tradeskilling and for me personally I don't like this new class.

[Quichon]

Personally, I like the sound (couldn't get EQ2 beta :( ) of the EQ2 tradeskills over EQ1. Here are my reasonings:

1) EQ2 tradeskills cannot be macro'd. By this I mean an illegal program which automatically presses a button or series of buttons all by itself so you don't have to do anything. Since the things comming up seem to be random, there's no way to program it to press x button at y time.

2) Tradeskilling in real life takes concentration. You don't concentrate on it, you mess up somewhere (like the time I accidentally put in flour instead of powdered sugar /shudder). I like that realism. Also, I like that you can level as a class doing nothing but tradeskills. They had that in Earth & Beyond, but it finally went flop.

3) Tradeskilled items will be in DEMAND because they require so much work involved. Really, how many people were running around in reinforced acrylia as a character high enough to make it, even when luclin first came out? Also, since not everyone can tradeskill, you won't have a glutted market and tradeskill items selling for near or at cost. This has it's downside, my monk loves to bake and will surely miss it, but on the whole, a good thing.

It's the law of supply and demand. I can supply, therefore I can demand :D

[Arganis]

Im not in beta yet, but i dont think i'd mind the damage, i think it would be fun in a way. "you got killed buy an orc Bob? HAH, my forge exploded and killed me." hehehe would keep you on your toes, no going afk or you come back to find that your aprentice left the oily rags to close to the forge and woof. :)

[Ngreth Thergn]

Personally, I like the sound (couldn't get EQ2 beta :( ) of the EQ2 tradeskills over EQ1. Here are my reasonings:

1) EQ2 tradeskills cannot be macro'd. By this I mean an illegal program which automatically presses a button or series of buttons all by itself so you don't have to do anything. Since the things comming up seem to be random, there's no way to program it to press x button at y time.


Unfortunately this is not true. :/

They can make a macro sample the graphics in a certain area and responds to that :/

There is no 100% way to stop macroing unfortunately.

This does make it rather dificult on them though :) MUCH more dificult to program... MUCH.

[Flendon]

Often now I will do foraging while semi AFK. I will forage, then go to the kitchen to stir dinner, forage, read a quick page here, forage, play a few cards in solitare, foarge somemore. Its not nearly as efficient as macroing, but I can usually hit the bottun soon after it pops back up and still be doing other things. Since they changed it to only rares cause damage I can see people doing this with tradeskilling in EQ2. Get the macro going and ignore it while they do other things, but keep the sound turned up. When the rare event hits and they take some damage it probably won't be enough to kill you. Finish up that round while paying attention, heal yourself and reset the macro. You can't do it while asleep obviously, but it keeps you from being killed and if the "rare" events are as seldom as the "rare" drops/forages then it won't require a few minutes per hour.

As for image recognition macros I see those as possible, but complicated enough so the programers will charge for them. This will cut down on the number of people using them, but not stop them. Once again this is just my opinion.

[Duncan]

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed Valquiss answer to "why would you guys want to tradeskill that way?" Gave me a much needed chuckle!

I guess basically it's all subjective and folks tastes vary. A guildmate of mine that's in beta wrote "there's no skill in combat anymore. Instead of a puller skillfully peeling off one mob and bringing it in, it's just like every man for himself as mobs come charging in all at once" or something like that. I shook my head in disbelief - I like the idea that if 6 orcs are guarding a temple and you attack one they all come after you, or 5 do and one hits the gong that calls for 6 more...

The puller splits off one mob and brings it to the group for slaughter system has always seemed like the exact opposite of the heroic fantasy I'm hoping to emulate - I mean how many stories are there about 6 guys surrounding the mesmerized enemy with swords drawn and then murderizing him when he wakes up...?

My 2cp anyway.

[Dreadalus]

And I'd just like to say how much I enjoyed your post, Duncan. Although there was some skill required for the puller, everybody else basically sat around waiting for their specific trigger, i.e. health bar low, mob B slips out of mez, etc. I'm not in beta, but from what I've been reading, there's lots for everyone to do in EQ2, which is an improvement in my (heroic fantasy) book.

[Valquiss]

And I'd just like to say how much I enjoyed your post, Duncan. Although there was some skill required for the puller, everybody else basically sat around waiting for their specific trigger, i.e. health bar low, mob B slips out of mez, etc. I'm not in beta, but from what I've been reading, there's lots for everyone to do in EQ2, which is an improvement in my (heroic fantasy) book.

/agree entirely

People who are used to using a particular system, a particular kind of skill, a specific technique to achieve their goals will often find themselves confronted with new challenges they don't understand (and can't understand) in the same way and, in their ignorance, claim there's "no skill anymore." These people also tend to be the ones who learned to do things the way they are used to not by figuring it out but by doing what everyone else was doing. Well, let them sit around complaining that there's no more skill anymore until someone else figures out what requires skill and how to develop a system and comes along to teach them. And then let the appropriately trained monkeys revel in their skillz. Bah.

I don't know how old time you folks are, but I remember when people didn't even know what enchanters were for. I remember playing when accepted forms of argo control amounted to wacking the thing that was attacking your cleric and hoping it died before your cleric did. That's if you were sophisticated. In most cases the cleric was on his/her own and frequently running laps around the group hoping their distress might be noticed. That wasn't a bad group, that was just the game as well as anyone understood it. Well, we learned. And we will again. And if people can't get over the fact that this isn't EQI they can go on playing EQI without troubling themselves over the burden of learning something new.